Monday, April 13, 2009

Gatsby Fishbowl: Chapter 7

If you feel that you have missed any vital clues in Chapter 7 and that you have clarification questions, feel free to address those before you delve into deeper analysis.

Enjoy! Challenge yourself to get into a hotseat today, especially if you haven't experienced the thrill of the hotseat yet.

108 comments:

maddief said...

Did Daisy intentionally kill Myrtle. If so, does this mean that she loved Tom?

morgant said...

What do you guys think about Daisy and her child? It seems to me that she really loves her, but the relationship seems kind of off to me. What do you guys think?

ParkerH said...

This was at the end, when Tom and Daisy were back at their house, and Nick was saying “They weren’t happy, and neither of them had touched the chicken or the ale—and yet they weren’t unhappy either. There was an unmistakable air of natural intimacy about the picture, and anybody would have said that they were conspiring together” (145 non-gold). Do you think they were conspiring? Or maybe something else?

marissas said...

“So I walked away and left him standing there in the moonlight—watching over nothing” (Fitzgerald pg 145)

Is this supposed to parallel when Nick and Gatsby first met? Both times, Gatsby was fixed upon the green light. Once hopeful, but now he realizes his dreams are over about Daisy.

Oliviak said...

What do you think about all the control and power shifts in the relationships?

KarlyH said...

“I’ve got my wife locked in up there,” explained, Wilson calmly. “She’s going to stay there till the day after tomorrow and then we’re going to move away.”
When I first read this I thought that Wilson was going crazy, but later we find out that Myrtle was killed. Is there anyway Wilson could have know that something bad was going to happen? Or did he simply have her locked in their out of jealousy? I thought that this displayed an interesting shift in power between Wilson and his wife.

KiraW said...

Maddie: I don't think that Daisy ever knew that Myrtle was Tom's mistress, it is just a strange coincidence that she killed her.

maddief said...

I agree with Morgan, that Daisy has this false image of Tom as the man who used to treat her with honor and respect. When she threw herself into marriage with him, it seemed as though she was thoroughly enamored with him, but after he abandoned her she turned to Gatsby.

rachels said...

maddief - I'm not sure, but I think the accident was truly accidental. It struck me as random violence that happened to connect all of the characters.

morgant - Daisy and her child seem really distant. I do think she loves her daughter, but it seems like she only realizes that and thinks of her when the child is right in front of Daisy.

catem said...

What significance did you guys find in this quote? "Gatsby and I in turn leaned down and took the small reluctant hand. Afterward he kept looking at the child with surprise. I don't think he had ever really believed in its existence before." (page 117 non gold)

mollyd said...

Maddie- I don't think that Daisy intentionally killed Myrtle. I thought Myrtle was fighting with her husband and got fed up so she left and ran out in the street. However Daisy just kind of happened to be there, but I don't know if it was intentional.

Laurenc said...

Maddie -

I get the feeling from the chapter that Daisy did indeed kill Myrtle on purpose. I can't really think of a good reason why she would though except possible jealously or perhaps to get back at Tom for cheating on her in the first place. I think Daisy and Tom could have had a good love but Daisy lost her faith in him after he cheated. Maybe her getting back with Gatsby is almost an 'in your face' move to get back at Tom as well.

KateP said...

maddief- I was wondering the same thing. When I read it the first time it sounded like she killed her on purpose, but then going back it said she tried to swerve towards the other car, but then got nervous and went back to at Myrtle. I don't think that Daisy even knew that it was Tom's mistress either.

MattN said...

morgant! I disagree! I really think that the girl is totally out of hand all the time and that she kept her in line for that one minute to make a good impression on Gatsby! She is crazy and her girl is crazy, but they do love each other...kinda. I'm think she is not really even sure if she is really her son!

maddief said...

Karly, I get the feeling that there's something wrong with Wilson. Most people don't physically lock someone up to prevent their leaving. I think after all of the times Myrtle fooled around finally caused him to snap.

AustinD said...

@Maddie: That was the question I possed on my Gallery walk. I think she was angry over how Tom and Gatsby were fighting over her and she needed to remove it somehow. I don't think Daisy know Myrtle is Tom's lover, so assuming this is true she didn't know who she was killing and wasn't inspired to kill her just for that reason. But, then again, should we move back to my spheal about how chambers died, you can't trust me when in comes to minor plot details.

morgant said...

"...and it occurred to me that there was no difference between men, in intelligence or race, so profound as the difference between the sick and the well." (124 non-gold)

What do you guys think about this quote? I don't really know what Nick was trying to say...

KarlyH said...

Morgan- I thought the reapearence of the child was really strange. Daisy's relationship with her daughter is a bit unsettling to me... It's like she has a baby girl when it is convientient for her, and the rest time she doesn't even exist.

Laurenc said...

Cate -

I think this shows just how reluctant Gatsby was to accept the fact that Daisy was married and a mother. He is so madly in love with Daisy that he truly wants her all to himself and doesn't want to believe that Tom was ever and is still a huge part of her life.

rachels said...

marissa s - wow great idea. I definitely think "watching over nothing" is supposed to contrast him yearning towards the green light at the beginning. Do you think this means both Daisy and Tom's and Daisy and Gatsby's relationships are destroyed? Or is her relationship with Tom kind of renewed?

KateP said...

karlyh- I think that he didn't want her to go out and cheat with Tom again. You could tell that Wilson was really bothered by his wife cheating since it physically made him sick. I thought that he was kind of going crazy though with the whole locking her up part.

shannanp said...

MorganT- I think that Daisy just doesn't seem like a real mother, it seems like the nanny is raising her and she just gets to see her mother sometimes when Daisy wants to show her off.
Page 117 non-gold:
"'Do you like mother's friends?...Do you think they're pretty?'"

mollyd said...

Karly- There is no way that Wilson could have known that Myrtle was going to be killed. I think he was very shocked to find out that Myrtle was cheating and he didn't know how to react so he just locked her up to get rid of her.

MattN said...

ParkerH: I think it is the opposite of conspiring! They are sitting their awkwardly talking and deciding if their marriage will actually keep working out!

catem said...

Marissa~ This quote is really interesting. I think what it is trying to say is that Gatsby keeps hoping that something will happen between him and Daisy, but I don't think that it is ever really possible. He is hoping for the impossible.

roser said...

catem-yeah it's strange that the kid came into the picture for a scene. I think it is just confirming Tom and Daisy's relationship as legit.

maddief said...

I wonder if Daisy truly loves her daughter. She shows her off like some kind of exotic pet, spending a grand total of thirty seconds with her.

Cate, I think it shocks him to think of the fact that Daisy was with another man and had a child with him. Also, the fact that that could have been his daughter if Daisy had chosen him in the first place.

marissas said...

Oliviak- I definitely noticed the control and power shifts in the relationships particularly through Tom, Daisy, and Gatsby. Tom only seems to value control and power. He used to want Daisy to remain faithful to him, but he didn't give the same to her. But when his beliefs about her affair are confirmed, he then increases that control over Daisy and becomes jealous. I think that might help him to strive to remain faithful in the relationship.

morgant said...

Matt- but when the child left, it says: "With a reluctant glance the well-disciplined child held to her nurse's hand and was pulled out the door, just as Tom came back..." (117-118 non-gold).

That gives me the impression that the child doesn't get to see her mother that much. And Daisy seemed really attached to her.

roser said...

I forgot, who is Mr. T.J Eckleburg??

Laurenc said...

Karly - I think Wilson locked up Myrtle to make sure she couldn't leave and fool around again. I think this shows us just how insecure Wilson was and how he is trying to step up and show her who 'is boss' in a way. I don't think Wilson had anything to do with her death though. I think Myrtle probably escaped to find Tom and just ended up getting hit.

rachels said...

What about Daisy's child, do you think that Daisy wants to leave Tom because she wants her child to be raised by Gatsby not Tom?

ParkerH said...

Morgan-
I think he was saying that as big as the difference is between the sick and healthy people, intelligence between races is the opposite. There is no difference there, as opposed to sick/well.

mollyd said...

Cate- When I read this quote for some reason I had the weird thought that Tom may not be the real father of the child. I am not sure why I thought this but I just found it interesting that I would think that.

sabrinad said...

Parker – I think that the quote at the end was very touching. I believe that it sheds a light on most (maybe I should say some) modern day marriages. People are together because they got married in a rush without getting to know each other or they fell out of love- so they are not happy in their marriage but they are not unhappy either! They are just together, staying together because they are stuck in that weird happy-unhappiness.

shannanp said...

ParkerH-
I think that they were talking about what their next step was going to do because now Tom knows about Daisy's love for Gatsby and her plan to leave Tom. Daisy has always known about Tom's infidelity so I think that they both know that there marriage is already shot.

KarlyH said...

Morgan- I got the feeling that the "sick" and the "well" were more mental states then physical. I think that Wilson was going crazy and Nick saw that his insanity set him apart from others more than race or status ever could.

maddief said...

Morgan, that's a really good quote. It makes me wonder if Fitzgerald is racist or not. In this quote he seems to think that all men are the same and equal. Yet other times there are mentions of the horror of interracial marriage, and an emphasis on white supremacy. All of these comments were made by different characters than Nick though, so maybe Fitzgerald is expressing his true views on race through Nick.

catem said...

Morgant~ I think that Fitzgerald was trying to say that the only thing that made Tom appealing to Myrtle was his money. It might also be saying that no man is above the rest.

Laurenc said...

In regards to Daisy's child. I agree with the people who said that Daisy seems to flaunt her little girl like a trophy. She is hardly ever around but Daisy loves to show her off. I doubt there is much true affection there though since neither Daisy nor Tom seem to think about their little girl at any other time.

morgant said...

Karly and Shannan- I agree with both of you about Daisy's child. I feel like Daisy is not really a mother to her, she just has her when it is convenient, however, Daisy does seem to love her:

"Her face bent into the single wrinkle of the small white neck. 'You dream, you. You absolute little dream.'" (117 non-gold).

MattN said...

Morgant: Yeah is see that aspect but i feel like the whole seen was absolutely fake! Powder floating off of the girls into the air and then this perfect child comes in! Acting just all to, well, TRAINED, for lack of better words. They might love each other, but she is absolutely showing her off to Gatsby's.

ParkerH said...

Rose-
In the beginning of chapter two, it describes him. I think he's a statue of someone.

rachels said...

What did the heat stand for?

KiraW said...

As for the daughter, I think that she was a link. She was a representation of the life that Tom and Daisy had together. Whether or not it was a long lasting love, it was there at one point.

KateP said...

Did anyone think that the heat symbolized something?

sabrinad said...

Rachel-
I don’t believe that she cares who raises the child. She has a nanny for that- she seems completely unattached to the child so I don’t think that is a factor in why she loves who she loves.

catem said...

Rose~ Mr. T.J Eckleburg is the person on the billboard above the valley of ashes I think.

Laurenc said...

Rachel - The heat is making them all sweat haha which symbolizes how they are all hiding something and all worried about other finding it out. At least that's what I think

MattN said...

LaurenC: I absolutely agree! The whole seen seemed fake to me and the fact that the girl was just so perfectly behaved! powder floating everywhere and this little girl so proper! She is just trained for this situation to be "good" for Gatsby and then can go run along with the nurse and cause trouble!

AustinD said...

@Rachel: I got the impression that she could care less about the child, let alone who raises her. Again moving back to the modernist point of view, a mother usually loves their children and is willing to put themselves in their child's place. Daisy spent very little time with her daughter so, as with what we know about moddernism, it twists the usual steryotypes into something the oposite of what it is.

maddief said...

I feel terrible for Tom's and Daisy's daughter. She gets ignored by her mother except when she wants to show her off, and treats the fact that she's in an affair with a man who is not her father with such nonchalance.

KarlyH said...

KateP-
I think that the heat could have represented the growing tension between the characters and the general unease between them.

KiraW said...

Did any one find it very odd that Gatsby was hiding in the bushes? It seemes a bit odd for someone of his stature.

morgant said...

Matt- Yeah, she definitely is showing her off and that's what confused me because it seems to be a sort of contradictory relationship. But I see how you could argue both ways.

roser said...

KATEPARRA- YEAH! That is what I was thinking about the whole chapter. Okay so these are my thoughts...I thought that as the weather gets muggier and hotter, so the plot gets fired up as well. I think it is forshadowing oncoming events...esp. the murders and heart-breaks

rachels said...

rachels - different rachel :) - I think the heat might have represented the tension and confusion that was kind of hanging over them all day. At first Daisy sees Gatsby as an escape from that. His total devotion to her was "cool", and brought clarity and certainty to her life.

ParkerH said...

Rachel and Kate-
You know how when things get tense, or embarassing, or whatever you might flush and feel hot? This is kind of like the situation that this whole thing is--it's very tense, nerve-racking, etc. It's like their reactions/feelings. That help?

catem said...

Katep~ I have noticed a lot of paralells between the weather and the tone of the chapter. I think the intense heat the this chapter reveals how tension was building and reaching it's boiling point. In earlier chapters there was also relations between the rain and sun and the tone.

Oliviak said...

Has anyone else notice that FSF has only used the color green a few times in the book and every time he does it is with Daisy.


like on page 137(nongold) "Michaelis wasn't even sure of its color-- he told the first policeman it that it was light green."

catem said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Laurenc said...

Kira - I think he was worried that someone would have seen him in the car after the accident and if they saw him standing on his lawn or something they might have turned him in. I think the whole standing in the bushes thing was also symbolic to just how worried and freaked out Gatsby was about the incident with Daisy, Myrtle, and the car.

morgant said...

Kira- haha I was thinking that exact same thing! I was like wow, what is he doing?! But I think that finding out that Daisy loves him and Tom, I think that kind of messed up his though process because everything was different.

roser said...

Kiraw-I never thought of that, but it does seem eerie. Gatsby comes off as outgoing guy, to be showed off in the front, not hidden in the bushes...

maddief said...

I feel like the only reason that Tom is fighting for Daisy now is because he knows that Myrtle is now out of his reach. Without Daisy to fall back on, he's worried about being abandoned. He never thought that she would leave him, but now that she has the resolve to leave with Gatsby, he panics and tries to win her back.

KiraW said...

Olivia: I hadn't nociced that, but that's a really good observation. Also at the end when the Green light is across the bay. The common phrase "green with envy" is prefect for daisy. Gatsby and Tom are both very envious of her.

mollyd said...

Kate- The heat could possibly be
a foreshadow to the arguement that would arise between Gatsby and Tom over Daisy. The heat was persistent throughout the whole chapter showing how the tension has been present for a while.

roser said...

catem-thanks! Do you think the billboard of him, with the eyes, connects to the cover image??

MattN said...

RachaelS: I think that the heat is causing/representing the tension rising between all the couples! And finally it cools off as soon as night comes and Daisy hits myrtle, life is cool and sad and calm again!

shannanp said...

RachelS-
I think that Daisy was setting up for Gatsby to feel like the little girl is more of Daisy's than Tom's so that the possibility of him raising Daisy's child with her when she comes to see everyone.
Pg. 117 non-gold:
"Afterward he kept looking at the child with surprise. I don't think he had ever really believed in its existance before."
I think that Gatsby is kind of hurt because he knows that even if Daisy and Tom's relationship ends, Daisy's daughter will always be there as a reminder of what once was.
"'She doesn't like her father,' explained Daisy. 'She looks like me. She's got my hair and shape of the face.'"
Daisy has caught Gatsby's disappointment and is trying to reassure him that if he has to look at the child, he will see Daisy, not Tom.

ParkerH said...

What is with these classic writers and irony? Mark Twain and his whole satirical piece, and FSF's book where the wife of someone runs over the mistress of her husband, etc.?

morgant said...

Maddie- Yeah, I definitely agree with you. I think that since Tom found out Myrtle was killed, then he is in danger of losing Daisy, he is willing to do whatever it takes to keep her and not lose her to Gatsby. If he doesn't, he doesn't have anything left.

maddief said...

Will Daisy choose Gatsby? If he isn't arrested or accused of killing Myrtle, does she have the resolve to leave Tom? And does Gatsby want to be with someone who is willing to leave their current spouse for another, even if it is him?

catem said...

Roser! Yes I do think it relates to the cover of the story.Have you noticed the naked lasy in the eyes. Do you think that this is supposed to be Myrtle in the road? Or something else of significance

shannanp said...

roser- I think that the cover is a woman's eyes. Possibly Daisy's or Myrtle's. Perhaps Myrtle is watching them from wherever she went after being killed...

KiraW said...

Morgan: I know right? But that's an interesting point that it is symbolic of his troubles. Things aren't going as planed and he's becoming worried about who she may choose.

maddief said...

Do you guys think that Nick and Jordan are being too unsympathetic to the plight between their three friends? Or is their frustration justified. I can understand their annoyance, and I think it's wise for them to simply observe from the sidelines, but they could at least try and understand the situation.

shannanp said...

Catem-
Perfection. I agree with you that it might be Myrtle's eyes!

roser said...

catem- WOW! I have not noticed that..it also looks like a man in the left pupil and a women in the right, maybe representing the love/hate marriage relationships. The differences and similarities of man and woman.

morgant said...

Kira- exactly! It is almost like he doesn't know what to do anymore because Daisy not choosing him over Tom kind of set all of his plans backwards. He doesn't really know how to deal with this sort of rejection.

KarlyH said...

About what the inner circle is talking about, I think that Tom and Daisy are so used to eachother that they can find comfort in eachother, but to me there relationship seems more easily compared to a really good friendship. I don't see them as IN love, though they love eachother and trust eachother despite the things that have happened between them.

maddief said...

Rose, whoa, I never even thought about the eyes before! Um, I think that they're Daisy's only because she is the main female character. Now that I look at it, her staring is really starting to bother me...>.>

roser said...

shannon-O so like Myrtle in her afterlife, watching over the mess she has been freed of on earth...That's a good intrepretation, so why is she crying??

KateP said...

maddief- I think that Daisy is really confused. At the beginning of the chapter Daisy makes sure Nick is coming and he knows something is up, so Daisy and Gatsby were probably planning on telling Tom that Daisy was going to leave him. When it comes time to do it though, Daisy lost her nerve and admits that she loves both of them. I think that Gatsby expects Daisy to leave Tom for him and always has.

shannanp said...

What do you guys think that green is symbolic of?

Laurenc said...

Shannon - I think the green symbolizes envy since it seems like everyone in this novel is in love with someone they can't have. This whole society is overflowing with envy for money, love, and material objects.

MattN said...

KarlyH: Yeah i completely agree! i think it is exactly what Delaney just talked about! It's really not even their! They don't love each other and honestly i don't think they can even confide in each other!

maddief said...

Does anyone else feel like this book has turned into a bit of a soap opera? XD There feels like there's so much tension and drama, while the rest of the book is pointless descriptions of people's personalities and parties. What is Fitzgerald trying to say about society then?

KiraW said...

Rose, Cate, Shannon: I think that the eyes maybe are Jordan's, the woman on the outside that is looking out all over of the characters and the whole story. What do you think about the carnival looking thing in the background?

shannanp said...

roser-
Maybe Myrtle is crying because she is mourning a life that she never got to have. A life in which she was married to someone that she loved and that loved her. She also would be able to see that Daisy and Gatsby have a true love and she wishes that it was her.

sabrinad said...

Do you think that later in the book the car crash will have greater significance later on in the book? I feel that it will be the final factor ripping Daisy and Gatsby apart.

rachels said...

I think that Gatsby would almost be lost if he actually married Daisy because he is so attached to the fight to find the girl he was in love with before yet he never can because they both changed, there is a reason love changes as people grow. Often I don't want Daisy and Gatsby to get together because their love is built on the past not the future or the present.

Laurenc said...

Maddie - I think the novel has been like a soap opera from the very beginning! All these affairs and complex relationships are really hard to imagine ever actually happening. It's all so dramatic too, especially with the murder in this chapter.

marissas said...

Shannon- Like they talked about in the inner circle, I just think the green light always sybolizes Gatsby's hopes and dreams... AKA Daisy. Towards the beginning, it was like the green light at the end of tunnel, guiding him to reach his goals. Then when he gives up on Daisy, it is a pysical representation of his failure, adding to his distress.

catem said...

Shannanp~ This was kind of brought up in the inner circle, but I think that all the possible symbolisisms(I don't know if that right) for greeen reveal how many situtations/emotions are brought up with just love. Kind of like Kenna is saying in the inner circle.

morgant said...

Maddie- I so feel like this book is a soap opera. I think maybe FSF was trying to say that society can be affected by anything and anything can set something off.

KiraW said...

Maddie: Agreed. I think that there is alot of simple and pointless ideas that are set out that show the simplicity of society. But at the same time keeps you entrigued and wanting to find out what is really going on behind the scenes.

shannanp said...

LaurenC-
That is so true this book really is just about conveting what your "neighbor" has. Do you think that it has any direct connection to just Daisy?

rachels said...

Do you guys think that love can leave?

ParkerH said...

Why does everything have to be so fake and strained? Not just in the book, because it definitely has that in there, but in life too? How much of life do we spend just playing the game?

roser said...

Kiraw, Shannon, and Catem-Okay so Sabrina googled the cover image and the painter said it was Daisy's face. She could be crying because of the pain and suffering the men are putting her through...the carnival thing could be the trivial extravagant mess her life has turned into.

MattN said...

RachaelS: YEAH!!! It completely still seems to me like a childish middle school relationship! They don't know what to do together once they are actually together!! I think that Daisy is gonna go crazy, or one of the men will decide for her!

shannanp said...

Marissa-
So could it represent the kind of green light that Gatsby had been suppressing until he found Daisy again and then went back for her love?

maddief said...

Sabrina, I definitely think that Myrtle's death will separate Gatsby and Daisy. I predict that he'll be arrested for the murder, or he won't want to be with her because she's a murderer, although he didn't seem too concerned with the fact at the time.

Laurenc said...

Shannan - After reading this chapter I think Daisy might not want to actually leave Tom but instead get back at him for cheating on her. So yes I think the envy does relate to her because she envyed the love that Tom showed to Myrtle and wanted it for herself. I think Daisy loves attention and loves love! She craves it from both her husband and her former lover

rachels said...

Daisy and Tom both are energized by controll over other people and that is why they can't be happy with only eachother.

ParkerH said...

rachels-
I think it can't. Actual love can't leave, but infatuation or something along those lines can. The inner circle was kind of saying that it could, but then they said otherwise... but I think love can't just "go away".

whitneys said...

ParkerH – I definitely think they were conspiring and that they killed Gatsby and Mr. Wilson. I think that they were sick of other things plaguing their marriage, because they did love each other they had just fallen out of love. I don’t know but that part really confused me, especially when she had just told Tom that she was leaving him for Gatsby, so I am unsure about what really happened. But I do think that because Myrtle was dead and out of Tom’s life, Daisy and Tom saw it as an opportunity to fix their marriage and get away by killing the only things really holding them back.

MarissaS- That is an interesting comparison. I think Fitzgerald is using it to show that no matter what, Gatsby does not change or grow at all throughout the book. He so obsessed with the past that he really cannot live at all. But really interesting and cool comparison.

As far as Daisy killing Myrtle on purpose, I strongly disagree. I think that is was completely by accident and that Fitzgerald used it as an interesting to way to show that if you really wanted something to be out of your life, you can remove it.

Morgan T – About that quote about the men being sick and well, I think Nick was definitely revealing to the reader that Gatsby was not well and that set him apart from Tom. With the way that Gatsby obsessed over Daisy shows this mental sickness and I think Nick finally reveals this to the reader in this quote.
I agree with you guys about Daisy’s lack of love for her daughter. I definitely think that she does not love her and is merely something she holds onto when she is questioning her marriage. Her daughter is something she can look to and be like “See, we had a child so our marriage is fine and we are happy.”

Oooh! I like this symbolism you guys talked about with the heat! I think it is totally a metaphor to the tension between all the characters because it is something they absolutely can’t stand. So I agree with LaurenC, it is a symbol of the secrets they hide from each other just tearing them up inside.

OliviaK – Interesting find about the green color being linked with Daisy! I definitely think it has to do with the fact that she is a source of life for Gatsby. Green to me is a color that represents spring and life.