Sadly, today is our last fishbowl discussion day for The Great Gatsby. For me, it's the last time I ever get to fishbowl Gatsby with an Honors American Literature class, so let's make it spectacular!
Don't hold back!
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Holocaust - "1.a great or complete devastation or destruction, esp. by fire.
2.a sacrifice completely consumed by fire; burnt offering." -dictionary.com
Everything that had caused trouble was destroyed. The two people that had ruined Daisy and Tom's marriage were dead and the man who caused Gatsby's death was dead too. All loose ends were tied.
Throughout the book, the only thing that has stayed consitant in beauty and peacefulness has been nature, but at the end of this chapter even nature has turned grotesque and raw. Everything has been destroyed by the fire of society - even nature cannot be seen for its beauty.
It is a holocaust of the relationships with Gatsby and Daisy and the dreamer that Gatsby was.
I think that the use of the word "holocaust" was used because by killing Gatsby, Myrtle, and Wilson the rumours and burdens placed upon Daisy and Tom's marriage were burned away. Also I feel like the people who were murdered had an innocent or at least honest nature to them, even if they did participate in an affair.
Fitzgerald describes the deaths as a holocaust because it was the grand finish of Gatsby's dream. Myrtle's death caused Tom to cling to Daisy and Wilson's anger lead to Gatsby's demise. All three of these deaths prohibited Gatsby from achieving his dream of being with Daisy, and the word holocaust describes his goal going up in smoke.
I think the line shows that love had died and this was such a terrible tradegy that it was akin to a holocaust. It was as if all the love in that society had died along with the passions of Myrtle, Wilson, and most immportantly Gatsby.
The dreamer had died and his legacy had burned away. This is a true tradegy. The death of love and hope.
For one, the heat is a part of fire, and the heat was a giant part of the parts leading up to this point. Also, within a gun, when shots are fired, there is combustion (flame), which propels the bullet. So even though the flame may not directly kill the individual being shot at, the death is an semi-direct result of the explosion within the gun.
"...and the holocaust was complete."
I think this symbolizes how Gatsby died without realizing his dream of being with Daisy forever. She didn't call him, and Tom managed to sway her back to his side and away from Gatsby. This was his one aspiration in life. Everything, including his crimes, his purchase of a house near Daisy, and his lavish parties, were links in a chain, so to speak: he wanted to be with her and nothing else. When he died without a resolution, everything literally went up in flames. Gatsby died with an unrealized dream.
I think that this line is fitting because just one thing – love – destroyed every single thing. It destroyed Tom and Daisy’s relationship, Gatsby’s life and relationship with Daisy, Wilson’s life and relationship with Myrtle, and Myrtle’s life and relationship with Tom and Wilson. Pretty much, this one, tiny little thing killed three people and sabotaged at least four relationships. After Wilson and Gatsby’s deaths, there was nothing more to be done. Tom and Daisy were together and there was nobody left to destroy.
I think beyond the death of Gatsby and Wilson there were many relationships that were destroyed. Wilson learned that Myrtle was cheating on him and that devestated him. Myrtle got hit by a car and this was a shock to Tom. After Daisy hit Myrtle she never spoke again to Gatsby. So in a short amount of time three relationships were harmed quickly and consumed up by one incident as a fire consumes a forest in a wildfire.
When Leclaire told us that this was before the Holocaust of Germany that completely changed my perception, because I didn't make that connection before. The definition, "Destruction by fire" made me think back to all of the connections that Fitzgerald makes to fire, especially the one night when Gatsby's house was on fire. I think that in a way it was meant to symbolize that Gatsby's house had burnt itself down because of the passions that it had and the connection it had to Daisy. In a way, everything finally burnt and was destroyed by the same way that it had begun.
I think that Fitzgerald is talking about how everything has now come to an end. Myrtle, Gatsby, and Mr. Wilson are all dead and Daisy and Tom have left. All the problems that exsisted before are no longer there. All the cheating that was going on is now done and Daisy is just left with Tom and Tom just has Daisy now.
In this case not only were people distroyed but their dreams and other peoples futures. Because Gatsby is dead, Daisy must stay with Tom as she has been left with no alternitive so her hopes of a happy life with some one she at lest used to love are gone. Gatsby lifelong dreams and sultry day dreams are also gone. Myrtle is dead and her husbend who truly loved her and was an honest person in a dishonest world can't handle it and is dead. Lives are so intraconnected that when one person dies other might and their dreams certainly will. I think that is what makes it a holocaust.
"...and the holocaust was complete". As soon as I read this quote, a switch was totally turned on in my head. Not only have there been deaths, but there have also been other distructions. There have been extreme distructions of love. The love between Tom and Daisy has always been on the edge, the love with Daisy and Gatsby was almost destroyed. All love of this book was broken by affairs and other interests. A large distruction was that of Gatsby. As an idividual, as his dreams were crushed, he was destroyed. Sadly, this book illustrated large amounts of distruction, rather than birth.
"...and the holocaust was complete"… other than people, what is destroyed by the end of this chapter. Utter destruction by fire or flame is the definition of holocaust. I think that you can take this and look at the love that keeps being destroyed; Daisy love for Tom, Tom’s love for Myrtle, Daisy’s love for Gatsby, Nick and Jordan’s love. There were so many instances where this love became false and the flame destroyed them. Not only was a that flame destroying them, but consuming them before the final death.
I believe that the word holcaust was fitting because everyones dreams and aspirations were destroyed. Gatsby knew before he died that his dream was no longer attainable- which in a way made the timing of his death appropriate because he no longer had anything to live for. The same could be said about Wilson. I feel he truly loved his wife and the double grief from her cheating and then dying was too much for him to take thus destroying him as well.
I think that, besides the people who died, by FSF saying "the holocaust was complete" he was saying that in a way, all the love had died. I don't really know about Daisy and Tom, but Wilson was dead, Myrtle was dead, and Myrtle was dead. Those are the people that had caused the trouble and caused the affairs.
I think that F. Scott Fitzgerald uses the word holocaust because it is kind of an abrupt and tragic end to everything. It's an end to Myrtle's murder, to Wilson and Gatsby's life and Daisy and Gatsby's possible future together. After Gatsby's death the book and the world that Gatsby left behind seems very desolate because the story from Nick's point of veiw was centered around Gatsby's existence.
The fire of the passion Wilson felt was what drove him to kill Gatsby. The holocaust could mean all the love that was destroyed, the relationships between Tom and Myrtle, Wilson and Myrtle, Daisy and Gatsby, And Nick and Jordan, all destroyed by their fire and passion. The innocence that Nick first described Daisy of having, by comparing her to a rose, is destroyed by calling a rose grotesque.
I believe that by the end of chapter eight I believe that with the lives of Myrtle, Wilson and Gatsby what their personalities represent also were destructed. Each character could show a different stage in life. Myrtle shows young annoying vibrancey, Gatsby shows a hopelessly devoted person who wants to give tohers meaing, and Wilson shows a more broken beat down person. After each died what is left? I believe this is what the holocaust could represent, the destruction of life through a raging fire that was caused only by a spark.
I think "...and the holocaust was complete" refers to not only the death, but the dramatic death of people who had been causing trouble or tension. Within Myrtle's death, Tom now has no one to have an affair with, and he must now turn to Daisy as his only female companion. However, her death caused more trouble, making Wilson accuse Gatsby, so when he goes to kill Gatsby, Daisy no longer has an affair, and she must now turn back to Tom. They are almost reunited. All the troubles after this end when Wilson kills himself. In a way, this "holocaust" provides a resolution to everyone.
"...and the holocaust was comprlete." By definition, holocaust meaans complete and utter destruction by fire. Throughout the novel, especially in the last couple chapters, there are many references to fire. On the scorching day of Myrtle's death, the heat builds and builds until she is killed at the climax of the heat, and the climax of the story. The next day, which is almost as hot, Gatsby decided to lounge in the pool and await Daisy's phonecall. I think that the love between Gastby and Daisy was like fire, burning and intense, yet it destroyed both of them in the end. They were turned into piles of ashes (metaphorically), burned out and purposeless. The fact that the fiery passion of Daisy and Gatsby led to the fiery anger of Tom and Wilson, which in turn created the destruction of them all.
I think this is a holocaust because not only did three people die, but relationships were also destroyed. Daisy and Gatsby's relationship ended when Gatsby's true identity was revealed. It could also be seen as a holocaust because Tom and Gatsby were trying everything in their power to destroy each other, not physically but emotionally through their use of words. Their anger grew and both of them ended up accidentally taking their anger out on each other by punishing each others love affairs. That's what anger does to someone.
Fire can be related to their anger.
The word "holocaust" is used to show the death of something beautiful. It is the finalization of all the toil for the lives of the characters. Holocaust also shows that it is not only the end, but it is the end in a brutal, grotesque, unrelenting way.
When Fitzgerald uses "holocaust" at the end of chapter 8, he is vividly painting a picture with his words about not only the death, but the total destruction of Gatsby's dreams by the anger of human pain. Ever since he came east Gatsby has taken himself from Jimmy to Gatbsy because he wanted to someday be worthy of Daisy and hoped she would come back from him. But, this dream is shattered at the end of chapter 8 with his loss of Daisy forever. This loss of Daisy then causes his world that he created to shatter into the material world without any importance. Because this tragic end is caused by Wilson's madness and anger, the word the Holocaust fulfills its meaning of "destruction through fire" because the rage symbolizes the fire.
Holocaust is used in this sentence because everyone's hopes, dreams, and aspirations come to an abrupt halt when Gatsby is killed! I believe so many people looked up to Gatsby, and when he is killed, many people think that their own dreams are not possible to complete! They have been destroyed mentally!
I think that many things were destroyed along witht the deaths of Myrtle, Gatsby, and Wilson. Relations were either destroyed or mended. Gatsby's chances had obviouly already been destroyed, but his death may have mended Daisy and Tom's relationship. All of the previous cares had been destroyed,"He no longer cared. If that was true he must have felt that he had lost the old warm world, paid a high price for living too long with a single dream." Everyone kind of started over as the old evils had perished.
I think that the word "holocaust" was used to show how generally destructive the actions of Gatsby have been. When I think of fire, I personally think of massive near unstoppible destruction. Gatsby, over the span of his life, had destroyed the relationship between Daisy and Tom, which in turn resulted in Daisy killing Myrtle, which Myrtle's death caused Wilson to shoot Gatsby and Tom. By my standards, that is massive destruction, hence "Death by fire".
I think the word "holocaust" was used because Gatsby's death was the end of such a huge important life in Nick's eyes. He had worked so hard to work his way to the top, decieving everyone around him, just to get to Daisy. His death signifies the end of hope for reaching his dreams, and also the death of his kind of dream world he had created. Wilson and Myrtle's deaths add to this great loss. They had a life together, no matter how unhappy, and now there is no hope for them. Also, all three of their ends were very interconnected, which gives even more weight to each individual death.
I think along with Gatsby, the past, in general was destoryed. Relationships from the past have been utterly extinguished, like Gatsby and Daisy, Tom and Myrtle. Everything that Gatsby has worked for has been in vain, as there wasn't anyone or anyhting that kept his legacy.
So do you guys think that "The Great Gatsby" is a love story?
Does anyone think there is any signifigance to why Gatsby was killed in the pool, because Gatsby mentions that he hardly uses the pool?
I took notes on this yesterday---hannahl commented how Gatsby getting into the pool was almost kind of a "last rite" or purification. It was like Macbeth because water is thought of as something that purifies and rinses clean. Any thoughts on this?
What did you guys think about the character Michealis? I thought it was kind of interesting that he had not been mentioned before this chapter.
Good question Shannon: I think that it is a failed love story. Almost a reflection of FSF and Zelda's relationship. Gatsby loved Daisy to the death, but I don't think that the feeling was returned.
ShannanP - honestly, I do not think it is a love story. I think he uses the love between Gatsby and Daisy to reveal something else beyond mere love. Love, especially the love Gatsby has for Daisy is fantastical love and throguh the failure of this, Fitzgerald is showing how no matter how hard you try,dreams are just dreams and we have to live in reality.
ShannonP- I do think that The Great Gatsby is a love story. Even though it is unclear whether or not the love was "true", it is still a love story. The characters seemed to go back and forth on love (well, at least Daisy did). I think it is impossible to deny that this is, in fact, a love story because practically important event was affected by or was a result of love.
catem---I thought Michaelis was very random! He had never been introduced before this chapter and he suddenly appears. What significance could he have had?
Shannanp~ I feel that Gatsby is a tragic love story on Gatsby and Daisy. Not Tom and Daisy or Tom and Myrtle. I think it's a story about a man who is in a search for his long lost love and ends up finding her. They end up falling in love, but in the end she was going to stick with her original husband, thus making it a tragic love story that didn't work.
Shannan- I do think that this book is a tragic love story. To me, the central theme is love, but not like typical love stories. The love is not pure, but tinted and confused with the mass of people surrounding. I feel like this was meant to be a love story, but not a happy one. This is similar to his life and the love he shared with Zelda. It was never pure and clear, but rather mixed up and confused, but with both, there was a heart to the confusion, a true love under it all.
Katep~ I think that the fact that Gatsby was finally in his pool displayed how he had finally divided into reality. I thought it was really sad that he realized that Daisy wouldn't love him more than Tom right before he died.
Yesterday the inner circle talked about how Wilson committed suicide and how it was like his way out and solved his problem? What do you think about it?
One thing I noticed in the passage we read out loud was the line “A new world, material without being real, where poor ghosts, breathing dreams like air, drifted fortuitously about…” How can this new world relate to the rebirth seen through fire (like the holocaust…)? The phrase “material without being real” really stood out to me. Earlier, Daisy’s voice was compared to money; do you think this quote could in some way relate to her?
shannanp---I think it's both a love story and a commentary on society. There are definitely elements of both. Love played a huge part: Daisy and Tom's marriage/infidelity, Nick and Jordan's relationship, and Gatsby's obsessive longing for Daisy. So yes, it was part love story.
KateP~ I think that shows the irony that was brought up in the book many times. If Gatsby had drained the pool like the servant had wanted to do, he may have lived instead of dying in the very thing which he had never gotten into but that night.
WhitneyS- I totally see what you're saying, but I think that Fitzgerald himself is too romantic to write a story about how love isn't realistic.. To me, it seems like Fitzgerald would be trying to convey a greater message that is entirely the antithesis of that.
Amyw~ I feel like Fitzgerald presented Michaelis as a representation that there is some good in society, some people left who are actually humane.
amyw - Again, I think the character goes back to how Fitzgerald makes the book seem so real. I mean, I don't know about you, but I know that I don't feel like I am reading a book, rather living the story through Nick. The random characters are just like the random people we meet in our lives who we don't know about, but play some important, however minor role, in the course of our lives.
KiraW-
So do you think that FSF really wrote "The Great Gatsby" in order to figure out his and Zelda's relationship and to kind of vent? Why do you think that FSF writes stories based on his life?
Cate: I think that Michealis is just a side character who is there to help be an outsider that helps to clarify Myrtle and Wilson's relationship. As the title is The "Great" Gatsby, it is a reflection of his great life. To understand what was going on behind the murderer's mind helps us as the reader to understand why Wilson did what he did.
Shannan- I think this is almost a tragedy, that started out as a love story. Daisy and Gatsby were in love, but there was always something keeping them apart, like in most love stories. But they found ways to keep them going. I think the love story was ruined when Gatsby died, because Daisy never actually comitted to him. Her and Tom then moved away after he passed away, and you know that Tom and Daisy aren't in love. But I think it was close to being a love story and F. S. F. was still trying to make a point about it.
Cate M- I thought it was odd that Michaelis was not mentioned before but he had some sort of loyalty to Wilson. After Myrtle was killed and Wilson was in his crazy stage Michaelis would not leave hime alone. He even stayed overnight until someone came in the morning. I was curious as to why he felt compelled to stay so long.
I don't know if you can truly call it a love story with all of the affairs. In a way it is but it ends dramatically. I could really go either way with this one and I'm kinda torn. Half of it is about love and the other half is about cheating on the person you should love.
oliviak---I agree. Once he was dead everything was done; all of his problems were solved. He wouldn't have to deal with the grief of his wife dying, or the fact that she was cheating on him. Also, after killing Gatsby, cowardice most likely took over, and he thought it would be better to commit suicide.
I'm going to put my thoughts on here right now because my laptop is about to die so...
What do you guys think of this quote?
"Gatsby was overwhelmingly aware of the youth and mystery that wealth imprisons and preserves..." (Fitzgerald 151 non-gold).
I was also wondering what you guys thought about Nick's fluctuating opinions of Gatsby? First he hated him, then he liked him and so on. We kind of discussed it yesterday, but I'm still kind of confused.
KateP-
I see the pool as symbolic for the things Gatsby is holding onto. All summer, he wished to swim but never took the chance. When he dies, I think him falling in the pool symbolizes him finally falling into and giving up all the things he wanted to achieve in his live and had strived for since he was young.
Whit-
I completely agree. I do not believe this is a love story. I think that Fitgerald is telling the story of a society lost in either money and material things or the past. I think these are all things he warns America of- you cant live in the past, you cant become obsessed with material goods because when you do so a “love story” can never take place.
EmilyJ- I agree with you that IF it was a love story, the fact that it was a love story was ruined when Gatsby died. This is because there was no conclusion. Daisy did go away with Tom, but she still loved Gatsby. So I do not know.
Shannon: Deffinatley! I think that FSF was such a lost person that he needed to get his feelings out in a way that was personal yet unpersonal. He wanted to be all he could to Zelda and he worked hard for her, but she didn't seem sold out to him. I bet that may have added stress to him and he just wanted to get it out to an audience. He was a brilliant author and he wanted to, almost needed to share his life to make his stories come to life with their brilliance
morgant---I think this is a commentary on how society can be fickle. We think one thing at first, then we decide another, then sometimes we change our minds again...it's like society as a whole can't make up our minds; we tend to be indecisive.
I would love to hear what people have to say about this section. Here, Nick had just complimented Gatsby as he left; "I've always been glad I said that. It was the only compliment I ever gave him, becasue I disapproved of him from beginning to end. First he nodded politely, and then his face broke into that radiant, understanding smile, as if we'd been in ecstatic cahoots on that fact all the time. . . The lawn and drive had been crowded with faces of those who guessed at his corruption-and he had stood on those steps, concealeding his incorruptible dream, as he waved them goodbye" (Fitzgerald 162, gold banned). I love this piece that Fitzgerald wrote, and I find it so interesting that he stuck with Gatsby to the end, and yet disproved of him all along.
WhitneyS-
So you think that Fitzgerald is showing the more realistic side of love, but there is still love in the story? Do both people have to be in complete infactuation with one another for it to be a love story? And I agree that Fitzgerald is definitely very blunt on his feelings towards the magical things in life like love and even when he discusses God.
Who do you think Fitzgerald represents? If Fitzgerald and Zelda represent Daisy and Tom, why would he choose them because it seems as if they are disliked characters by the end of the book?
catem - I thought Michaelis's introduction to the story kind of late in the plot may have been because Gatsby's 'other life' was so seperate from Nick and the rest of the characters. After his death all of these people who had connections to Gatsby come out of the woodwork and are introduced to them and the reader.
Oliviak- I agree with what we talked about yesterday and how committing suicide was his way out. It provided a resolution in his mind, and he had done everything he thought needed to be done. His wife is dead, and he doesn't know how to go on. He kills her so- called "killer", Gatsby, and he has accomplished all that he wants to get done. He has no where else to go now, so he thinks committing suicide would be the way out, allowing him to escape from his troubles.
Morgan-
I am also confused by their relationship... first he says that he disliked him from the beginning to the end but then he calls him one of his dearest friends, he says he admirs him but at the same time pitties him...??
Olivia~I think that Wilson committed suicide because he had nothing left to live for. On page 136 it said that he was, "one of these worn-out men: when he wasn't working, he sat on a chair in the doorway and stared at the people and the cars that passed along the road. When any one spoke to him he invariably laughed in an agreeable, colorless way. He was his wife's man and not his own."
Delaney-
I see what you are saying but don't love stories still end in love? Daisy left Gatsby for her Tom, her husband, but that wasn't even love that FSF left the reader with. Its just comfort and selfishness.
kennaw - that might be because Fitzgerald was unhappy with his life on a ceratin level with Zelda. He didn't want to protray them in a good light because he himself saw his life as fake and meaningless.
Melissa- I like that quote too. I think Nick kind of felt sorry for Gatsby. I think he wanted to tell Gatsby something that told him that he still had somebody behind him in a way. Although he didn't like him, he wanted to leave a lasting impression almost just because Gatsby had nothing left due to Daisy rejecting him. I just felt like Nick wanted to give him something to remember almost.
MorganT-
The quote you just listed is interesting. I defenietly never payed attention to it when I read. I believe that this quote is Fitzgerald showing that Gatsby was the only one who realized that becoming obsessed with money imprisions people yet it was not his money that imprisoned him it was the fact he was trapped in the past.
MorganT- I think that Nick's faltering adoration of Gatsby is necessary for the development of Gatsby's character. As the book progresses, everything in his life seems to dwindle, so I think Nick losing intrest in/affection for Gatsby is just a tool used by FSF to reconfirm his newly acquired weakness.
Morgan T- Nick confuses me because he said ," I disapproved of him from beginning to end." (pg. 154 non-gold band) But in the end he seems so concerned with Gatsby's funereal and how important it was to him. Even through Gatsby's hard times he is always there so I don't know why he would state the above comment. I don't really know how he feels towards Gatsby, but I would like to know.
melissa- This passage stuck out to me too. It really confused me because this whole time I thought that Nick was trying to be like Gatsby and then he says that he disapproves of him. Nick had also helped him throughout the book with trying to get Daisy back so I think that this shows that Nick is a really good friend even though he did not like Gatsby.
Melissa: I think that he is a really stong character (Nick) for being able to stick with Gatsby. I think that although Gatsby was rich and loved to hold parties, but he was not really strong enough to become friends. He didn't really try to make friends he just sat back and watched as people came into his home.
Kenna- I always thought he and Zelda represented Daisy and Tom. I understand they are very disliked, but I think that accurately represents his own life. Fitzgerald had a life full of pain and hardships, and I almost think that maybe he didn't even like hiself. He realized he had problems, so maybe he was just satirizing himself through the character of Tom.
MelissaZ~ I think that in this case Nick got to a point where he disapproved of what he was doing to Daisy and Tom because he said at the beginning of the book that he liked him a lot. He didn't like Gatsby's action but he like him as a person, if that makes sense.
KennaW-
I do think that it's a tragic story, but somehow I don't think that it's a tragic love story. I think that love storied have to end in love and it seems that no one was ever in love except for Gatsby. Daisy didn't even seem like she was in love with Gatsby because wouldn't she have stuck by him?
mollyd---I don't even think HE would know how he feels toward Gatsby. His opinion constantly changes, which is sort of a commentary on the fickleness of society, at least in my opinion.
ShannaP - I agree!!! And I think that one quote that totally summarizes it is this:
"They were careless people, Tom and Daisy-they smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other poeple clean up the mess they had made.." (Fitz 188).
What do you guys think of this quote?
Marissa~ I definitely agree that he was putting satire on his own life. Maybe by doing that, he saw what he had really become and outside critics and people started to not like him. Maybe the book taught him a lesson on himself.
amyw-
I think that it's very wise that like Delaney you also mentioned that the characters were motivated by love and all of their actions were in search of love, but does that truly make it a love story?
Delaney- That does make sense and I see where you are coming from, but then Nick liked Gatsby in the end. If it was so important for the development of Gatsby's character that Nick lost interest in him or whatever, why did he like him in the end all of a sudden?
ShannanP - yes, I do think it is a realistic love story instead of all the mooshy chick flicks that all us girls always eat up and then are disappointed when it comes to real love.
Kate- Yeah, this section totally took me by suprise because I thought Nick really looked up to Gatsby and wanted to be a part of his life, yet here he says that he disapproved of him. I think that Nick genuinly liked Gatsby, and he respected him. He disaproved of what he did and how he spent his life, that was what this quote may have been saying.
I think that Nick was really a neutral character and Fitzgerald needed him to compare to the rest of the characters to show how rediculous they really were and how much they wasted their life on foolish things.
Kenna: Although I think that FSF was many of the characters, I think that he was Gatsby the most. he was so in love with Zelda (daisy) that he would do anything for her. He died an unfortunate death that really didn't reflect on his personality or intelligence (just like Gatsby's murder)it was just bare and bleak
Kenna
I think that the whole thing about how FSF uses lots of representation in the book. He choices to be tom because I think that Tom was the man he wanted to be, always having an easy life. I think that he wanted to show how he would protect his wife and support her even if things between them had not been best just like Tom does for Daisy when Wilson comes searching.
whitneys---This quote jumped out at me. It pretty much sums up a lot of the people in this society. Maybe it's FSF commenting on his own society, despite the fact that he and Zelda were "King and Queen of the Jazz Age." I think it's very true, definitely.
ShannanP- I really liked what you asked about how if people have to have complete infatuation with each other for it to be a love story. And I'm going to say DEFINITELY not. You can have one character in a story and have it be a love story. This has nothing to do with Gatsby, but it reminds me of Into the Wild sort of. It was a love story because he loved nature and adventure. THere are other aspects in the novel besides relationships that can also make it a love story.
Mollyd~ More on Michaelis, (sorry I just think he is really interesting) I think that he is included also because he is Greek, and he seems more human and concerned than all the American characters. I think that he is trying to say how low American standards have become.
lizc---I hadn't thought of this before but it makes sense! He contrasted the extremity of the other characters with the neutrality of Nick to show how ridiculous and materialistic they really were.
Kenna- That makes sense. Its like the book opened his eyes to how the world saw him, and Tom's character made him realize the corrupt life he actually lives.
MorganT- Nick liked Gatsby in the end because FSF wanted to show that even though Gatsby fell apart and became weak, he was in reality a good person and was deserving of love from at least one person (aka a friend, aka Nick).
Whitney~
Ah I love that quote it's on of my favorite! It just describes what a mess Tom and Daisy had made in other people's lives. How the created the disaster which was up roared at the end but was taken out on Gatsby and Myrtle, even though they didn't cause it. It explains how they single handedly destroyed two lives and didn't even care since they moved on with their lives and made a mysterious trip because they had the money to do so. They were selfish.
Yesterday in the inner circle we talked about how the word twilight is used in every chapter. What's the significance of this?
amyW - Yes. And it is making a statement about how these people retreat into their wealth and their comfort, but they are merely running away from their problems. Yet their problems are not solved. They just got lucky this time with Wilson killing Gatsby and "cleaning up" this mess for them.
Do you guys think that any of the characters "lived happily ever after" or came to a resolution at the end of this story? Or do you think everyone went back to how they were at the beginning of the book still searching for their own poersonal solution and still trying to achieve what they want?
Do you think that if Gatsby wouldn't have been killed that he would have moved on from Daisy? Do you think that he might have commited suicide if he wouldn't have been murdered?
Delaney- Oh, ok that makes sense! Thanks, I was just kind of confused. Yeah I definitely see where you are coming from. I agree. Gatsby was deserving of some love at least especially after Daisy rejected him.
I think this chapter had great lines, and another one I found was on page 157 of gold, "She vanished into her rich house, into her rich life, leaving Gatsby-nothing." This quote really just made me sad for what happened between Gatsby and Daisy. I don't approve of what he did, but also, Daisy seemed to be taking him for a ride, and now that she is done, she left Gatsby for nothing.
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