When Nick left, what does everyone think Daisy and Gatsby talked about?
What do you think FSF is trying to say in the song that reads: “One thing’s sure and nothing’s surerThe rich get richer and the poor get – children…” (pg 95 non-gold book)
AmyW~ I definitely don't think they talked about their love, but I think they caught up on each others lives and maybe what it was like for Gatsby in the war.
What was the deal with the shirts? Why was Daisy so sad that they were so pretty?
Amy - I was wondering that too! Because as soon as he returned, all of the awkwardness disappeared and everything was perfect.
alexf---I think this is a commentary on Gatsby. His wealth never stops, yet he is poor in matters of the heart.
Through out the book there have been many descriptions of Daisy's voice. What, do you think, is that special quality in her voice that makes people listen?
Did anyone notice that the entire time Gatsby and Daisy were together, their relationship was completely material based. What I mean is that he’s showing off and bragging to Daisy about everything that he OWNS and not what’s going on in his life. Why do you think this is? Is it because society back then was completely material based or because Gatsby can’t really reveal anything about his life?
Alright guys, so I was wondering. After our discussion yesterday and the fact that this chapter begins with Gatsby's house appearing to be on fire, what do you guys think the symbolism for fire is?
kiraw---I think it was symbolism. It suddenly dawned on her how lucky she was to be back with Gatsby, and the beauty of his house and all the emotion overcame her.
Kira I was wondering the same thing. It may have been to show off how good he is now and what she is missing out on by being married to tom.
KiraW- I also thought that this was an odd thing for Daisy to notice because she too is rich and hasn't she seen Tom's nice shirts?Do you think that her sadness has to do with Gatsby's reappearance?
What does everyone think was the business Gatsby wanted Nick to get involved in?
I always got the impression that Gatsby was so cool and collected generally un-phased but Daisy seems to bring out a different Gatsby. He was awkward and seemed frantic to impress her. Although it seemed cute how much of an effect she had on him I thought it was shallow and rude to show her all his shirts and shove his possessions in her face.
Amy~ I think that they may have talked about just their lives in general and touched on their love. Daisy was crying when Nick came back. The Awkwardness was gone, but I think that in it's place was a confused sorrow
amyw- I agree with Kenna, I think they just caught up with each other about life, nothing that would make the conversation awkward, since when Nick comes back everything is fine and they are having a good time. So they couldn't have gone too in depth into anything.
AmyW~So in matters of the heart, do you mean children? Like that he is unable to start a family? Or does the “children” part not really apply to Gatsby?
@Alex: I think it shows that money and love do not mix. That line reminds me of Tom and Daisy and how their relationship never held up. Rich people are used to getting what they want when they want it, so this attitude prevents them from having a relationship
Alexf - I was wondering that too! I think that their meeting is so interesting and it goes back to the fact that I think Gatsby has to prove to Daisy that he has wealth, because that is why she left him in the first place.
Does everyone remember how when we were in the gothic unit, the houses actually became characters? Although this isn't a gothic story, on page 93 of the gold banded book, I really begin to feel like Gatsby's house does have a character. The quote that starts this idea is, "There was nothing to look at from under the tree except Gatsby's enormous house so I stared at it, like Kant at his church steeple, for half an hour" (Fitzgerald 93). Does anyone else notice this?
Ooooo Amyw i like that! I totally see what you're saying. It's interesting that you have this big strong character of Gatsby who seems indestructable and to see his weakness revealed. It makes his extremely vulnerable.
Alexf - I think that everything was about materials because that's all Gatsby really has for her. He is unable love her because she is married to Tom. After the war, all he could do is conjure up these material things and now is his time to impress her with everything he had done.
JordanS~(From my previous comment) Their relationship was completely material based. What I mean is that he’s showing off and bragging to Daisy about everything that he OWNS and not what’s going on in his life. Why do you think this is? Is it because society back then was completely material based or because Gatsby can’t really reveal anything about his life?
alexf - I think he's trying to say that happiness can't come from wealth. True happiness with a family and those you love can only come without the motivations of money or power. The rich focus entirely on getting more money because it tends to become the sole focus of their existances where as the poor do not marry for love or power and end up starting families. Which is a strange thing for FSF to say because he was rich and had a child.
alexf---I meant how he was "poor" with matters of the heart before he was reunited with Daisy; the love of his life didn't used to be close to him.
AlexF! I completely noticed that as well! I think that FSF is trying to symbolize his own life and his venturing after Zelda! It seems very shallow and material to me, whether they actually talked about something deep once Nick left, i don't know, but they don't seem to know what to talk about!
Alex- When I read this, I almost thought it sounded like a bad thing to have children. Gatsby continues to grow in his wealth, but he can't have Daisy, where daisy is tied to her husband through their daughter.
Whitney- This is a bit of a cheesy analogy but the house represented Gatsby's heart. He had been waiting so long to meet Daisy and now the day was finally coming so his heart is on fire with feelings and anxiety. All this emotion is keeping him up.
Shannon: I think that her sadness is a total reflection of the whole new thing and fact that Gatsby has reentered her life.
delaneyn---Exactly! He's a total juxtaposition.
KiraW~ I think she was refering to Gatsby and connecting him to the shirts. She says, "Suddenly with a strained sound Daisy bent her head into the shirts and began to cry stormily...'It makes me sad because I've never seen such--such beautiful shirts before'" (pg 98 gold band). I think she saw the rainbow colored shirts, and realized how many different times she had seen Gatsby in those shirts and that she missed him. I think the colors represent Gatsby and so do the shirts themselves which is what she realized had been missing in her life.
Melissaz- OH!! That is a really interesting point! I agree with you. Gatsby's house has a character of its own because it represents wealth, fun, carelessness;however, it is so large with just one inhabitant it also has its secrets!
What do you guys think happened when Nick left the room? What did Gatsby do to break the ice, and how was he able to overcome his fear of talking to Daisy?
Whitney- I didn't really think about the fire until you asked that. I think that Gatsby was trying to let Daisy know that he was there. After all, they were across the bay from eachother and that makes sense to me. The fire is like the burning desire of his passion, want, and need for her.
Whitney~ I think it was a symbol for emotions that were raging through Gatsby and they engulfed all Gatsby had worked to own. I think it shows his overwhelming and conflicting feelings for Daisy. It was like a beautiful thing (his love for Daisy) causing destruction of another beautiful thing (Gatsby’s material possessions)
What do you think will happen with Gatsby now that he has finally met up with Daisy and rekindelled a "relationship"/ understanding with her. Will the parties stop since they were originally targeted to see Daisy? Do you think Gatsby and Daisy will keep seeing each other and eventually establish a solid relationship?
What is the significance of "the boarder" in Gatsby's house, if any?
MZ! I get where your going with that! It seems to me that Gatsby's house has grown on him, and that Gatsby's might want to act like he did before he went to war, but he can't because he has to live up to the standards he has made for himself! The house owns Gatsby! Not his soul!! :P
macm- the big question is did they really talk?... They seemed to dumb struck to say anything to each other.
AustinD, WhitneyS, MorganW~Okay, I completely see what all of you are saying. So then do you think that Daisy is “poor” or “rich”?
mollyd- I like that! That is a good analogy, so almost as if fire represents life instead of something negative.
Melissa- Good idea, I did think it was interesting that he was able to stare at the house for so long. What was so intriguing about it? Maybe it really was like another character.
Whitneys - I think that the fire in Gatsby symbolizes modern society and how its false pretenses are burning through the people of society. Society is burning its way into everyone - everyone has become in some way connected with or obsessed with money or power.
Melissa I would have to say that Gatsby house is a character and with all the parties and the way it is described it is defiantly a character and with the amount of depth that FSF describes all the house(Tom and Daisy's, and the Apartment and Nick's)
Melissa-I noticed this too! On the first page I commented on the quote "as if the house had winked into the darkness." I really do feel like even though this is not a gothic story, the house might play an roll or a character in many ways.
alexf- I really liked that quote a lot. I'm not quite sure how it tied in to Gatsby and Daisy's love but it definately represented the society, and I think that it is really true. The more children you have the more money you have to pay.
Whitney: Interesting! I think that the house that Gatsby lives in is a bit of a reflection of him. Big and full of wealth, but a huge expance that held many secrets. Like FSF's life, I think he may have had many secrets as well.
emilyj---I'm a romantic, so I think they'll keep seeing each other and Daisy may leave Tom. I think that Daisy will figure that since Tom has cheated on her several times, she has the right to have a relationship with Gatsby. There's just something between them that's undeniable...
@Emilly: Call this a bit random, but I think the relationship is going to build until Tom and her split. Then, later on, the new couple will end up in a similar relationship to that between Daisy and Tom where it is on the verge of breaking.
Karly- It's like the house of usher but not as extreme! And the house doesn't really seem like that big of a deal. It's like tha narrator in a way; it's there and being used by Gatsby to create a story. Do you think Gatsby is using Nick for his desires?
Okay so throughout the chapter, after Gatsby wrecks Nicks clock on page 86 in the non-gold edition there are multiple mentions and metaphors of time. Pg. 87: "The automatic quality of Gatsby's answer set us all back at least another minute."Pg. 88: "...half an hour before..."Pg. 92: "Now, in the reaction, he was running down like an underwound clock."Do you guys think this is a coincidence or did FSF do this on purpose to show a greater metaphor?
amyw- I'm not really sure what the significance of the boarder is, but when they got him to play the piano for them, it reminded me of the song we listened to about the "Piano Man." Maybe this guy represents someone who has no ties and no skeletons in his closet, simply wandering and taking up a room in an interesting house. I also think that Gatsby wants someone else in the house. What do you think?
Alex~ I think he was showing Daisy all his possessions as almost a way to show her what she is missing and get her to see him in a certain light. He doesn’t want her to see his feelings so he is showing her “things”
Emily- I think if they really have feelings for eachother then a relationship will unfold between Gatsby and Daisy. I think it will either be slow because its been so long and they have to rediscover eachother. Or it will go fast and they will just jump back in to what it was like before.
EmilyJ: I think Gatsby himself will become a new person! He will try to wu Daisy away from Tom because he is so deeply in love with her, but no matter how much she loved him she refuses to divorce! I think that she will realize Nick is just a jerk and she can have a much better life with someone she really loves. I feel that she really does not love Nick anymore!
LizC. I'd say they definitely talked. I think at first they couldn't say anything because it was so awkward not seeing each other for so long and remembering what they had, but after the initial shock I think they recalled their relationship (or at least their friendship) and were elated by the fact that they were reunited.
shannanp---I think time is definitely a metaphor. It represents how much time Daisy and Gatsby spent apart, but how their love endured.
Alex: I think that Daisy is poor. She lives this very grand lifestyle, however she has almost nothing under her skin. I think that she is longing for the love that she once had in Gatsby.
Morgan- I strongly disagree. I don't think the fire was society. To me, it seemed more like a symbol of his love. You have to look at the context of the scene, because it was more romantic than anything else in my opinion.
Lizc- I'm not sure! I'm just confused about how Gatsby was able to overcome his emotions and say something civil to her!
What do you think Daisy will do now that Gatsby is back in her life?
LizC~Okay, so you said that you think Daisy and Gatsby were too dumbstruck to have a real conversation, but I think that it was more of awkwardness. What I mean by this is I think that they both built the other one up so much that they just didn’t quite know how to act once there were truly with each other. Like the quote from the last page (96) said: “No amount of fire or freshness can challenge what a man will store up in his ghostly heart.”
morganw - A little more pessimistic than Molly. haha:) But I really liked what you said, espeically because you included the behavior of fire as spreading quickly and devouring the life it spreads to...interesting when you compare this to society.
alexf - I definitely think that Daisy is "rich". I think she longs for the "poor" side of life, but rich is all she's ever known. Her one previous shot at happiness (a "poor" life) (with Gatsby) was taken from her and so she resigned herself to never being able to attain it again, even if she meets Gatsby again.
Macm- in a way it seems like Gatsby bought that house for Daisy. Sure, it was mostly becasue she was right across the bay but wouldn't he want her to have a good home if he ever found her again?
meganu---I think she will have a relationship with Gatsby and their love will be rekindled.
Shannan P and Amyw- I was also thinking that the time metaphor could be something like how time practically disappeared once Daisy and Gatsby re-met.
Megan- I think Daisy will become completely fed up with how Tom is treating her and realize there is a man that actually wants her for who she is. She will then leave him and be with Gatsby.
ShannonP: You bring up a good point! I think he is trying to bring attention to how much the times have changed since Gatzby and DAisy last saw each other! Times have changed but love seems to stay the same! Daisy i think is at a loss of words, but she still feels the same way about Gatsby! They don't know what to do with each other or how to feel after such a long time has passed, Daisy seems to have moved on, but Gatsby never let go...
Morganw- I'm sorry but i disagree again! I think that Daisy is fairly content with the life she lives. If she cared at all for the "poor" life wouldn't she care for her child?
AmyW - If that is Daisy's decision, what do you think will become of Tom?
WhitneyS~I remember like one of your first comments was about fire in this chapter and last. I didn’t know if you saw this quote, but from page 96 (nongold book) he said, “No amount of fire or freshness can challenge what a man will store up in his ghostly heart.” Any thoughts?
EmilyJ-I don't think that Gatsby's lifestyle will change because Daisy has reentered into his life. Even though he hosted all of those parties just in case she would show up, I really think that it became a part of who he is because I don't think that he likes to be alone because he doesn't trust himself.
Alexf- Yes, I agree. I'm sure it was awkward and I like the quote you put in there. Fitzgerald is very talented in his descriptions and story line.
Does anyone else have different predictions about what will happen with Gatsby and Daisy? I want to say that they will just be together and it will be happily ever after, but that seems too predictible...
amyw- I am also a romantic and I was thinking the same thing as you, that they would get together and Daisy would leave Tom for Gatsby. But, is that possible? Because I also think Daisy's and Tom's child is the glue between them... Can she break that and sacrifice not being with her daughter?
ShannanP~I think the metaphor of time is saying that time was running out for Daisy and Gatsby to be reunited, but now that they have been, I think time has stopped and is keeping a steady pace...if that makes any sense :)
As to the Clocks metaphor, I think that the it could symbolize the time that has been ticking away since Daisy and Gatsby had been separated. I think that when it almost falls, it is like they are knocking it over and breaking the wall down for their relationship to begin. But then it doesn't fall. Gatsby resets it back up and it is like him rebuilding that wall so as not to ruin Dasiy's marriage. Thoughts?
I’m beginning to not like Gatsby as much. I think it’s honorable to not want to break up a marriage but I think its annoying that he has feelings for Daisy and he hasn’t done anything about it. He has given up on something that he claims he wants which makes me believe he doesn’t really love Daisy.
meganu---If he finds out about the affair, he will probably be angry, but take the opportunity to marry Mrs. Wilson, since they're so much alike. That's just a prediction though.
Mac- I noticed that point was odd. Previously they needed Nick almost to be the middle man, to make them feel comfortable. Finally, on page 101 of the gold book, this paragraph shows a transformation between them, "As I watched him he adjusted himself a little, visibly. His hand took hold of hers and as she said something low in his ear he turned toward her with a rush of emotion. I think that voice held him most with its fluctuating, feverish warmth because it couldn't be over-dreamed--that voice was a deahtless song" (Fitzgerald 101). I love getting to almost see this change. I am not even sure what was said and why he gained up the courage to be alone, but to me it finally feels like he has settled into having her in his presence.
Lizc and Whitneys - Well, here's my justification for saying that fire is society. Liz, I see where you're coming from, but throughout the whole book the color red and fire are, generally, with the exception of this scene and a few others, used to represent bad ideas or happenings. So therefore, between that and my already slighty pessimistic view of this story, fire is society and society is bad.
MorganW~So then do you think that with Gatsby, Daisy will settle for a “poor” life again with Gatsby? And what about Daisy’s child with Tom? Doesn’t that mean that she’s technically “poor”?
For everyone who thinks Daisy would leave Tom and go for Gatsby: During this time period, it was completely ludicrous nfor a woman to leave her husband. Do you think she actually would even though it goes against her society?
Delany: I think your right. I was thinking the same thing. I think that FSF was trying to show that life isnt perfect and he wants us to see all sides of lifes problems.
I think that nick represented a safe haven for Gatsby and Daisy. I think Gatsby truly doesn't want to have an affair but I think he is scared of his desires and that they might take controll of him with out nick a third moral keeping party.
Delaney! Thank you so much for bringing that up! As much as i would love to think that Daisy would just leave Tom and leave him with his poor decisions and lonliness, that cannot happen. She stays with Tom through tons of times he has cheated! Tom will react to Gatsby in some, violent way, and Nick, will try to be a mediator and some how get in the way!! They can't be together because they lost their chance!
What do you think Nick means when he is touring Gatsby's house, and says "I felt that there were guests concealed behind every single couch and table, under orders to be breathlessly silent until we had passed through" (Fitzgerald 96)? Does it have to do with the transparency of Gatsby's guest? With Gothicism, the house often reflects the owner. Do you think this observation has to do with Gatsby's transparency or as Hannahl mentioned his "ghostly heart"?
Shannan- I agree with you about Gatsby's lifestyle. I think that it will probably stay the same. He has been caught up in the same motion for so long that it will definately be hard to stop it.
shannonp - I think that FSF is using the metaphor of time to symbolize how a mere five years can seem like a lifetime or a short expanse in a much larger life. It's almost like he's trying to say that life and love and time are all matters of perspective. Time may be running out (Gatsby) or it may just be beggining (Jordan) or it could just be a small slice of the life of someone else (the narrator - Nick).
Megan: I can actually see that happening. Daisy has a fairly rebellious spirit. Like when she was listening in on Tom's conversation with his mistress...
jordans---Or maybe it represents that his love is so huge and all-consuming that he was simply too nervous to do anything about it. His fear of rejection was possibly so strong that he didn't want to risk being hurt by the love of his life. So he remained close, but slightly detached; he admired her from afar in order to protect his heart.
Whitney, I really think that he is saying how what has happened to them will never change, their heart. The things that we hold inside our heart will never change no matter how hard we try it is part of you. So it is saying that the relationship that Gatsby has with Daisy is part of him and it will never leave him.
Delaney- I agree. I want to think that Daisy will divorce Tom, and Gatsby and Daisy will live happily ever after, but in reality, I don't think that will happen. I am not sure what will actually happen between them, but I think that it seems like it may turn out sadly, I just don't have a confident feeling about this relationship actually and happily lasting.
macm- GATSBY'S A GHOST! Haha, I don't know and I'm just kidding. I think Nick felt like the house was too quite because he was so used to the fact that Gatsby was continuously throwing parties and the house was never calm and serene.
meganu---I think there's a lot more to Daisy than we're seeing. For Gatsby to love her, she must be fairly complex. She has a dry wit and seems like kind of a rebel. And their love seems like enough to get her to leave Tom.
alexf - I love that quote! The fact that two contrasting things, the destruction of life (fire) and life at its peak (freshness) cannot change what fantasies we create in our hearts. It is almost as if nature does have great control over us, but our hearts have a greater power against the natural forces of life.
MattN- Exactly my point! :) Through all the toil FSF has been through, I don't think he is in any place to be writing fairy tales. There has to be some strong element of tragedy somewhere in this book, and I'm thinking that this could totally be the source of it.
RachaelS: I have to agree with you! I think that Gatsby know's right from wrong but he won't really be able to resist what he has been dreaming about for five long years!
MacM and LizC~Huh, I actually literally thought that there were people hiding behind all of Gatsby’s things. This man seem “not deep enough” but I felt that Gatsby didn’t want Daisy to see all his servants because they were just that – SERVANTS. Maybe Gatsby wanted to appear to have kept his house so clean by himself? But I’m not quite sure. Did Daisy have servants in her home too?
delaneyn---I was thinking that FSF might possibly give this story a happy ending in order to make it the antithesis of his life. We've talked about how Gatsby is how FSF aspired to be, so maybe this novel will be the manifestation of how he wanted his life to be.
lizc and alexf - Liz, that's exactly what i'm saying - she no longer cares for the "poor" life precisely because she doesn't care for her child. But neither do I think she's entirely content with the rich life. Alex - I don't think that Daisy will settle down with Gatsby because, even though she's tempted by it, she has already made the firm decision not to do anything about her place in life. She has resigned herself to living in a frivilous society with a husband who doesn't love her. I see her as a very weak character.
Amy, Delaney and Matt-I really didn't have a thought about what the metaphor was, but I knew that it was deeper than actual time. Now that you all mentioned that time stopped between Daisy and Gatsby--it makes perfect sense. I think that Fiitzgerald wants to build up Gatsby and Daisy's relationship so that we are able to see things from all points of veiw so that the reader can form their own opinion. This is yet another way to show the strength of the relationship.
meganu - I think that maybe she would and FSF would make a point that most people did follow society, but they were miserable. But when people finally broke away and "followed their hearts" :) they were much happier.
Rachel and Matt- I see your point. Gatsby now has a taste of what he has wanted his whole life, and now that he does, I don't think he will want to go back to waiting and searching. There will be a change, and Gatsby will have to do something about Daisy. He won't sit and wait anymore.
shannanp---Exactly! At a lot of points in this novel, it seems like FSF wants the reader to view it in their eyes based on their life experiences, and from their own opinions.
Alexf- I just think that Gatsby doesn't want Daisy to see that he needs help with anything, partially because he's a guy, but I also think that if Gatsby showed any weakness to Daisy in his eyes it would be tantamount to revealing how lost he has been without her.
Amy- That is an interesting thouhgt to how the story might turn out. There are many different predictions as to what may happen, but that is a good point. I think though that something totally crazy and unexpected will happen.
WhitneyS~I like what you said:“It is almost as if nature does have great control over us, but our hearts have a greater power against the natural forces of life.”But I’m not quite sure what you mean. Are you saying that nature controls everything about us, except our hearts? Or our minds? (Because if you think about it, our minds deceive us into building people/events up, just to be disappointed).
Sometimes I wish that I could be inside of Fitzgeralds head to see all of his thoughts and sort them out and maybe make sense of some of them. Maybe I would also like to steal his talent :)
Amyw and Whitneys- I would love to believe that FSF is going to turn this into a romantic love story, but I don't know. Something in my subconcious is just telling me to prepare myself for a letdown..
Alex- that is a funny interperetation, and maybe that is the case. To me I see it as figurative, not literal. I don't think he would care to hide the servants, at the least he would have them out to show off to Daisy the life he has and what she could/ could have had.
Could Daisy and Gatsby's relationship thrive even though their relationship contains many material elements? Maybe this is only because they haven't seen each other for five years and they're trying to rekindle their relationship.
MorganW-So are you saying that the amount of time that passes is relative to the importance of the event to that person?
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