Monday, April 6, 2009

Gastby Fishbowl: Chapter 4

Enjoy discussing Chapter 4 of The Great Gatsby! Remember to try to include passages from the text in some of your comments. Also, I'd love to see more of you in the hotseats, so get in there!

149 comments:

MattN said...

So who else thinks its ridiculous that Gatsby would through parties for years and years on hope of just talking to some one who even knows Jordan Baker!?! It seems obsessive to me!

MattN said...

ha ha just kidding Daisy not mrs baker!

melissaz said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
sabrinad said...

Ummm Matt its Daisy!

rachels said...

MattN - agreed, maybe Fitzgerald kind of exaggerated the lengths Gatsby went to to find Jordan again to really emphasize how much he truly loved her.

kennaw said...

Why do you think Gatsby never fully puts out what he wants to say? He seems to always hint at the larger point to what he is saying leaving Nick to wonder what he means or is going to reveal.

ParkerH said...

On page 79 (non-gold), Nick says "There are only the pursued, the pursuing, the busy, and the tired." Any thoughts on that?

rachels said...

jk i meant Daisy too!

catem said...

At the begining of the chapter why do you think that Fitzgerald included all the names of people that went to Gatsby's house that summer?

alexf said...

MattN~
I completely agree! I thought that it was really creepy and obsessive that he went through all that trouble just to find Daisy. Also, on page 79 (non-gold book) says, “…he’s read a Chicago paper for years just on the chance of catching a glimpse of Daisy’s name.”!! I found it really obsessive. Do you think that something will happen between Daisy and Gatsby…especially because Tom is cheating on Daisy?!

macm said...

What does it say about Gatsby that he won't even think about having an affair when so many in this time period consider it the norm?

delaney n said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
KarlyH said...

The quote "Then wear the gold hat, if that will move her; If you can bounce high, bounce for her too, Till she cry 'Lover, gold-hatted, high bouncing lover, I must have you!'" appeares at the beggining of the book. It really confused me and I am still having trouble finding it's place in the book. Does anyone understand this or have any ideas what it is about?

morgant said...

During the parties, there is a lot of gossip going around about Gatsby. And according to the chapter, Gatsby is aware of all the gossip. Why do you think he allows it? Or why do people talk about him so much?

EmilyJ said...

MattN- Yeah! I definitely agree. Especially since it had been such a long time since him and Daisy even had a thing, and he know she is married, so why is he still trying so hard? You're right, he is basically showing he is obsessed with her and he's doing anything he can to even come near to her.

roser said...

mattn-He obviously loves her and what's better to fight for then love? This seems almost like the true love we talked about b/t Fitz and Zelda...Plus Gatsby has everything he's ever wanted, except for Daisy

Oliviak said...

Mattn I think that Gatsby is afraid he doesn't know how to react and because people just come he doesn't have to give a huge amount of effort to get what he wants. He has all this money and so things have just kind of been given to him.

alexf said...

KennaW~
I think that he’s so secretive because he wants other people to make up their own minds and think for themselves. By this I mean that I think he doesn’t want what he says to be regarded as fact and instead, have people think for themselves and become open minded.

delaney n said...

MorganT- I think Gatsby is just a really chill person. I think he just ignores all the gossip because he wants to avoid confrontation and drama.

sabrinad said...

Alex and Matt-
I would agree it is a little creepy and or obsessive but I believe he is just trying to find his one true love. I think that he and Daisy will meet and she will have an affair with Gatsby just as Tom is doing.

KateP said...

catem- I was wondering that too. Maybe it was to show how many people actually wandered to his parties, but Daisy was never one of them and the main point of him throwing the parties was to find Daisy.

Laurenc said...

Kennaw - I think Gatsby is embaressed and doesn't really want anyone else to know what exactly he means. He might not want to admit it to himself either.

melissaz said...

Kenna- I think there is a part of Gatsby that is a little shy. He knows what he wants, but this subject of finding this love really hurts him. He has a hard time actually coming out to and saying something. I think this realization makes Gatsby an even better character, giving a rhyme and reason to his royal actions, making him more realistic.

MattN said...

alexf: Yeah i absolutely thought that was a foreshadow for that also! Daisy i think is way to loyal, no matter what Tom is doing!

catem said...

Parkerh~ When I read that passage I thought it was interesting, because I think of Gatsby as the pursuer, the busy, and the tired.

jordans said...

Parker~ I think this passage really reflects intentions of people and I mostly agree with it. Everyone has a love interest or an excuse to not have one.

lizc said...

RachelS- I think maybe the way Gatsby feels about Daisy is how Fitzgerald felt about Zelda. After all the book is dedicated to her, and maybe he wanted to convey the power of his love.

ParkerH said...

Morgan-
You ever tried to dispel gossip? If it's not bad gossip, or you don't care about it, it's not worth it to work at getting rid of it. I don't think he honestly cares enough about what people think about him to work at dispelling the random stuff that people he doesn't know think about him. Close friends or whatever are a different story, as is shown with Nick, but otherwise...

morgant said...

Delaney- Yeah, I can agree with that! You have a good point there.

sabrinad said...

Morgan T - I believe he lets the gossip go unstopped becuase he does not care what people think. He knows and he only cares about what the people he cares about think.

whitneys said...

KarlyH - I know that is an interesting quote. I think the dichotomy between the materialness of the gold hat and the love is a common theme in the book. That many people have to chose between love and wealth;most everybody chooses wealth

rachels said...

morgant - I think that relates to what we were talking about yesterday in the inner circle - Gatsby is kind of hiding in plain sight. I feel like he works hard to be mysterious and keep his true self or identity hidden, and allows people to endlessly speculate about him so that they're not really focused on what's really the truth. Does anyone have ideas about what Gatsby might be hiding? Or did anyone see this differently?

catem said...

Morgant~ I think that Gatsby allows all of the gossip to happen so that nobody ever suspects his real pain or troubles.

kennaw said...

MorganT~ I don't think it's that Gatsby's allowing them to gossip about him, I think it's that he just doesn't care. He only cares about Daisy and beyond that it doesn't matter who says anything about him. Anyone who knows Gatsby real well, will know he hasn't done anything the rumors have claimed, which is why Daisy wouldn't believe anything either.

alexf said...

MelissaZ~
Wow, that’s a really good point! I never thought of Gatsby as just being plain shy! Do you think that that’s why he doesn’t drink at parties, or is it instead so that if/when he meets Daisy at his party, she won’t brush him off because he is drunk?

macm said...

parkerh- I think that's a wierd quote but true to the time. Some people are just busy trying to make ends meet, some are pursuing something, whether it's a woman or job or whatever, and others are being pursued, romantically sometimes. The rest of society is just tired from having been in one of these roles previously. I think this says a lot about the culture of this time, why half of society is always on their toes and the other half are empty shells of people with no purpose in life anymore. I kind of see Gatsby this way, he loved Daisy, and he pursued her but now the chase has worn him out so much that I think he is rather apathetic about life.

morgant said...

Parker- Yeah, ok you have a point there too! I was also just kind of wondering why people gossip about him so much. If he is such an upstanding character in the book, why do people need to make up stories about him?

Laurenc said...

Parker - I think he is focusing of the importance of love with this quote. The pursing and the pursued being the first two people mentioned shows just how many people are chasing their passions or being chased by others' passions. The busy are those that don't care about romance and the tired are probably those who have loved or tried to love and are now done with it all and want to escape.

marissas said...

Parkerh- I think his thoughts reflect his view of modern life. He wonders why the pursuit of anything in this life (love, riches, & happiness) is worth anything at all.

I think the pursued represents Gatsbys pursuit of Daisy and Myrtles pursuit of Tom.
The busy and the tired probably symbolize everyone living shallow lives in the modern world.

EmilyJ said...

catem- I was wondering about that too because it just seemed so random and he went really into detail on it even though it didn't seem that important. I think he was trying to make a point, because a lot of those people he listed were supposed to be "famous" people, so it kind of goes to show that Gatsby went to suck extreme lengths to throw great parties; maybe he was trying to impress Daisy.

kennaw said...

Melissa, Lauren, Alex~
Thank you! But, do you think Gatsby is hiding something? Because I agree with your reasons for why he's so secretive, but is there something deeper within him?

morgant said...

Rachel S- I definitely agree with that and I think that he is hiding in plain sight. That is a good way to put it.

What I'm wondering though is why people need to gossip about him if they all like him and he's an upstanding character.

alexf said...

In the inner circle, they were saying that Tom isn’t working to love Daisy. On page 77 (non-gold) it says that only a couple months after Tom and Daisy were married, Tom was having an affair with a chambermaid from the Santa Barbara Hotel! What does this say?

delaney n said...

I'm confused.. I feel like Gatsby acts the way he does at parties to uphold his reputation, but at the same time it doesn't seem like Gatsby cares what people think. Why would he be so concerned about his reputation if he doesn't care what people think about him..?

ParkerH said...

Thanks for the input there. That helped.

Morgan-
The question should be: why do people make up stories about anyone? I can't answer either question. Maybe they want to lower that person to their level? Maybe they're just mean, nasty people? I really don't know.

whitneys said...

catem - I agree with you about that one. I think that Gatsby has a shady job and a shady past, and that is why no one knows. I think that he got his job just to prove to Daisy that he does have money and that was a stupid reason for her to not marry her.

Oliviak said...

Does anyone wonder how Daisy will react if Nick invites her to tea and then Gatsby shows up? Do you think that she feels the same way that Gatsby does?

MattN said...

Was Daisy ever really in love with Tom? And Tom with Daisy?

sabrinad said...

Do you guys believe that Gatsby really cares about the narrator or is he just using him to get to the prize which is Daisy?

melissaz said...

Karly- Thank you for bringing this quote back in, I hadn't even thought about it. Now that we have learned about their love, I can see how this quote relates to possibly to Daisy. Maybe, if Daisy were to actually "wear a gold hat", make her notice the dysfunctional marraige she is in, rise above the level she is at. In a way we are waiting for Daisy, or Gatsby, or someone to finally "man up" and get the lover they really care about, and not live in their lies anymore. But that is a complex quote and I think as the story progresses we will understand it even better.

catem said...

Why do you think that Fitzgerald included the character of Wolfsheim? Along with that why do you think they have reference to the Old Metropole, and the death of Rosy Rosenthal?

jordans said...

MorganT~ I think people gossip about him because he is such a likeable character and that’s out of the norm so they are desperately searching for any kind of flaw to relate to him in any way.

morgant said...

Delaney- I think Gatsby being present at his parties just tells his guests that he is not ignoring them, nor is he leaving them to fend for themselves. He doesn't care what people think, but he just wants to be there I guess. After all, he is the host of the parties.

Laurenc said...

Alexf - I don't think Tom cares about Daisy at all. She is probably just a girl who he knows will be there no matter what in case he can't find anyone else. I think he's using her but for what exactly, I don't know. It makes me feel really bad for Daisy though.

alexf said...

EmilyJ and CateM~
Well, about the names of the people that went to the parties, did you notice that a lot of the people had horrible events happen to them? Some died, committed suicide, were strangled, had their hand run over, etc. Any significance?

KateP said...

alexf- I don't think that Tom really cares abou Daisy. He thinks that he can have a wife along with other many girlfriends. The fact that he cheated only a couple of months after his wedding pretty much shows that he is not truely in love with Daisy. I think that Tom cares about Daisy, but he also doesn't even care when he hurts her by cheating.

ParkerH said...

Matt-
I'm not sure they did. Even today, lots of people that get married don't love each other, or they rush into it too quickly and don't know how to work things out, etc. Why do you think the divorce rate is so high right now? It's just more socially acceptable to get a divorce now. I think they'd get divorced if they were 21st century characters.

lizc said...

SabrinaD- That is a good question. In a way Gatsby seems to be using Nick, but on the other hand it seems like he really wants to be friends. However, I'm more inclined to believe that Gatsby is using Nick to get in touch with Daisy. But then again, haha, Gatsby needs a good friend.

MattN said...

Sabrina~ It seems to me that once he didn't get to say goodbye to her before he left for war, his whole life goal was to die, or to be with Daisy forever!! I think he is absolutely intending to just use Nick, but as they become closer, Gatsby is making some real friends!

whitneys said...

I thought that this was an interesting quote when Gatsby leaves the table, his friend Mr. Wolfshiem says, "Yeah, Gatsby's very careful about women. He would never so much as look at a friend's wife" (Fitzgerald 77).

But then Gatsby will go ahead and look at Daisy? What do you guys think about this.

morgant said...

Parker- Yeah, good point. That is very possible

Jordan, I kind of agree with you though maybe trying to identify whatever flaw they can, even if it is false.

KarlyH said...

I agree with the comment in the middle circle about the symbolism of the pearls. By giving up the pearls, she was trying to distance herself from society and the marriage. I think that she sees it as more a burden, a heavy chain around her neck, than a beautiful necklace.

Oliviak said...

Sabrina
I think that Gatsby does like the narrator he is not just taking advantage with of him to get what he wants. He couldn’t just do that because they live right next door. He may want to help the narrator too.

rachels said...

Matt N - I don't think Tom really loves Daisy, but he doesn't really want to lose her. I'm not sure if Daisy is in love with Tom, but it seems like she was trying to make him love her, and now she just doesn't really care anymore.

Sabrina D - I think Gatsby is using Nick just to get to Daisy. That might not have been the original reason he invited Nick to the party, but judging from the extreme lengths Gastby has gone to so far just to meet her, I think he's trying to get closer to Nick so that he can meet Daisy without it seeming like he's trying too hard.

melissaz said...

Alex- I just think he has no interest in drinking. His purpose is to find Daisy, no matter what. Drinking is not in the plan, and through all of his parties he has seen what drinking can do, and he wants to stay where he is until he finally finds his true love. Gatsby is a genuine man and doesn't waste time on unimportant matters, he puts his full energy into everything. That is why he is serious about finding her, through all these years.

sabrinad said...

Morgan T- I strongly disagree that he throws the parties because he likes them. I believe he hates the parties and only throws them in hopes Daisy will show up. I think that Gatsby is a good character but I see him as selfish - only doing things in order to find his love

catem said...

Alexf~ Maybe these people were included to suggest how the partying lifestyle eventually catches up with you, maybe it is foreshadowing something in the future.

alexf said...

SabrinaD~
I think that Gatsby is a good guy and does enjoy his relationship with Nick, but his deepest intentions were to get to Daisy. Now while this may make it sound like Gatsby is a horrible person, I don’t think that he is! Maybe although his original intentions were to get to Daisy, he and Nick have formed an actual friendship.

kennaw said...

DelaneyN~ Part of me feels that he isn't trying to uphold any reputation. I feel that he keeps throwing these huge parties in hopes that Daisy would one day see it and wander over since she lives on the other side.

roser said...

SAbrina-Definitely Gatsby is using Nick! He tries and tries to sugar coat his scheme with plane rides, and business lunches, but Nick sees through it after his night with Jordan, when he just shuts Gastby down

macm said...

Catem- I think that the character of Wolfshiem and that whole section was used so that Carraway could have the epiphany about how people can "play with the faith of fifty-million people." He also talks about how someone could have such malicious intent and focus on their goal without any qualms. I think that is how the random story of the murder ties in.

morgant said...

Whitney- I think that quote was talking about he would never look at another friend's wife, however, he has been in love with Daisy. Even if she is Tom's wife, she is the only woman he has loved, I guess.

KateP said...

whitneys- I think that Daisy is Gatsby's only true love. If he started throwing these extravagant parties to bring Daisy back to him, I think that he will go to great lengths to get Daisy back.

MattN said...

ParkerH: I have to disagree with you! I feel like Tom leaves Daisy because he is not getting what he wants, sex, from her! He goes to Mrs. Wilson to get what he can't get, but i think that really they love each other and they realize that they don't want to seperate! No matter what each other do stupidly! Daisy, might want to, but once she leaves Tom will realize what he is really missing
!

alexf said...

We talk about Gatsby using Nick to get to Daisy, but never about how Nick uses Gatsby. Do you think that Nick uses Gatsby to create an escape for himself to feel accepted? Is that moral?

lizc said...

Sabrina- define Selfish. You say that Gatsby is being Selfish in finding love. Does that mean that anyone looking for love today or in the past is also Selfish? I don't understand why he is exactly Selfish in your eyes.

whitneys said...

rachels - I agree with you. I do not think Tom really loves Daisy. Because she seems like an incredible woman. I think that she is more of a prize for him. He won her out of all the men and then he can even have an affair with another woman. I do not like Tom at all.

KarlyH said...

Sabrina- I think that Gatsby's intentions of friendship with Nick are true and I feel like he is sincere, but at the same time I really don't feel myself trusting him and I'm not really sure.

EmilyJ said...

sabrina- I think Gatsby really does care about the narrator. You can tell that Gatsby is a good person, and I don't think he would use a friend, just to get to someone he has been trying to win over for years. If he was really just using the narrator, I don't think Gatsby would make such an effort to be so friendly to him. For example, he takes Nick out to lunch, and during the drive I don't think he even brings up the subject of Daisy, so I think he wants a friendship in Nick as well as his desire for Daisy.

sabrinad said...

Matt and Rachel- I agree completly

kennaw said...

WhitneyS~ I think it's exactly what the inner circle thinks...he could be stressing the word "friend" because Tom isn't necessarily one of his friends.

marissas said...

Oliviak- I was wondering the same thing as I read that passage. I think she would be pretty skeptical if Gatsby showed up. I think that Daisy might still have some underlying feelings for Gatsby, but with the men she has in her life, she tells herself that she is over him. After the intital surprise, I think the tea might work to Gatsby's advantage and her feelings for him may arise once more.

ParkerH said...

Sabrina-
How is looking for your love selfish? It can be creepy every now and then, but in general? I don't follow. I mean, what's the point of living if you don't have people near you that you care about and they care about you?

Laurenc said...

Whitneys - It makes you wonder. Does Gatsby not consider Tom a friend? That might be why he has deemed it alright to look at Daisy. He might also know just how bad Tom is treating her and wants to take her away from that situation but he's still hesitating because of his morals.

morgant said...

Sabrina- I never said he liked the parties that he throws, I think it is because of Daisy too, but I was just talking about he wants to be there for the sake of his guests, not because he wants to be there.

And you have a good point about him being selfish.

rachels said...

whitney s - I think that quote about Gatsby is trying to show that his feelings for Daisy kind of transcend normal relationships / affairs. His friend thinks he knows Gatsby well enough to know he would never "look at another man's wife", but Gatsby's feelings for Daisy are strong enough for Tom not to be a factor in his feelings for her. Or it maybe is trying to show that Gatsby is hiding his true, not so honorable self from people. He is percieved as an honest man when he is in love with another man's wife and is trying to meet her again.

catem said...

Sabrina~ I think that right now Gatsby is an obsessed man, and can only focus on getting back Daisy. I think that he has hollow relationships to shield the pain, and to advantage himself. I don't think he necessarily is meaning to be this way, he is just obsessed.

melissaz said...

Whitney- Really, Gatsby is pursuing Daisy, but to me it seems fairly innocent. He is not pounding on her door, he is not watching her or seducing her. He just wants to see her again. They had a true love and I think that he just wants to see where she is at and if there is another possibility for them.

Another possibility could be that people get the idea that he doesn't look at any women, because he doesn't. He is only interested in Daisy and that is it. He sees no reason to look at other women.

But I'm not totally sure yet.

roser said...

alexf-No Nick just seems to go with the flow..it's more of Gatsby's invitations that are moving Nick into the lifestyle

delaney n said...

I think maybe Gatsby feels guilty for being selfish. I think he wants to make friends and feels bad that he has to use some of them in order to get what he wants.

ParkerH said...

Matt-
Well, how do you truly feel? I suppose I can see your point, but... I just don't think they love each other that much. I just don't. And really, with a guy like that, especially if she could swap him for Gatsby, I don't think she's going to miss out on much.

macm said...

Matt- I totally disagree. Not to knock Freud or anything, but not everyone thinks life is all about sex. I don't think that Tom and Daisy love eachother at all. Just look at the way any loving couple talks to eachother and acts towards eachother, and you will realize that Tom and Daisy are simly in a difficult situation with no socially acceptable escape routes. I think Tom is with Myrtle because he likes to feel good about himself, and who wouldn't feel superior next to ugly, fat, needy Myrtle?

jordans said...

I don’t think Gatsby is being selfish, since when is it selfish to look for something you’ve lost? I think he is repelling others from him in hopes of one day finding Daisy. I don’t think its selfish to try and find someone you love and I also don’t think its creepy of him to go to such desperate measures to find her. Once you’re in love I don’t really think you can be “just friends”.

roser said...

Hey guys what's up with the molar cuffs and the business guy, Wolfshiem? Those molar cuffs are confusing me..any symbolization there?

sabrinad said...

Liz- In the inner circle I believe I just answered your question. But also as I said this is only my view so far I will have to see how he treats Nick after reuniting with Daisy. And no I do not believe everyone looking for love is selfish- I just believe you could do it in a less selfish way like stepping up and being a man by giving her a call or going to her house.

catem said...

Okay going along with the selfish theme, do you think that even if Gatsby's actions are selfish, do they make the actions any less great?

alexf said...

RoseR~
Okay, but when Nick is walking along the street, he admits that he wan’t to be accepted. On page 56 (non-gold) he says that he likes to , “…pick out romantic women from the crowd and imagine that in a few minutes I was going to enter into their lives, and no one would ever know or DISAPPROVE.”

MattN said...

Parker! Yeah i absolutely agree with you! That Daisy would absolutely be missing nothing, but Tom would be left with, as mac says it, the fat ugly gross one and realize that he made an absolutely stupid choice! He is really not in love with her, just needs to keep his social status, and will be in the dumps if left!

morgant said...

Jordan- I definitely agree with you. I don't really think he is being creepy or selfish, I just think he wants to see Daisy and be with her. I don't see it as creepy.

rachels said...

roser - the molar cuffs grossed me out! At first I though their purpose was to make the reader have an immediate negative reaction towards that character. I'm not sure about any deeper symbolism.

melissaz said...

I personally don't think of Gatsby as selfish. If Gatsby ever gets Daisy, I don't see him just dropping Nick and all of his other friends. Yes, his parties are thrown to find her, but I also see how they are thrown to just fill his loneliness and to find, even if a few, genuine people. I don't blame him for doing something about his heart ache. I think it is unrealistic to think that he should throw his parties completely to allow people to use him and get completely drunk, just to call himself unselfish.

Laurenc said...

Catem - I don't think that Gatsby's actions are selfish. I think it is admirable that he is doing so much to prove himself to Daisy even if he may be too shy to admit that it's for her.

ParkerH said...

Sabrina-
That's unrealistic. She's married, after all. And with a comment like "he wouldn't even look at another man's wife", he isn't going to go impose himself like that. He's actually being a decent person about it. He's doing what he can with the restrictions that are set at the time.

catem said...

Roser~ I think that the whole molar cuffs relate to how Wolfsheim is a shady character. This might clue us into Gatsby's line of work.

MattN said...

CateM: I think that while his actions might be selfish and foolish, becauase they are for someone he loves and a good cause, that alone makes them great instead of worse! I think he spends his money stupidly, but he can afford it!

macm said...

Okay, general question that's been buggin' me:
Does Nick want to conform to society, or be his own man like Gatsby?

jordans said...

Cate~I don’t think being selfish is always bad, sometimes it’s necessary. I really don’t think there are any selfless good deeds, but that doesn’t take away from their goodness.

sabrinad said...

Parker, your being unrealistic (love matt)-
If he cares about her so much and is so obsessed he needs to do something instead of using others to contact her. He needs to grow up and learn that there are other ways to contact her than faking out and using other people.

melissaz said...

Roser and Catem- I do agree that this character is odd, but I don't really think of him as an evil or bad character. There is just something unique about him, but also, he seems genuine to me. Very few characters seem genuine and oddly enough, I think he is one.

roser said...

Alexfons-yeah thats some good evidence, I guess I only read the first half of the question, just the "is Nick using Gatsby" part. I still don't think he's using him, just that the acceptance and escape are some side benefits. I don't think Nick is working for those though.

MattN said...

Mac! I think that he doesn't exactly know himself! I think he wants to be lauded by the fellow guys, but still wants to be his own guy and be happy, no matter what it takes! so he has no soul!!!

lizc said...

Sabrina- what about the fact that she is married? He can't just go up and knock on her door.

rachels said...

macm - I'm not sure. Nick has always struck me as seeing himself above all the petty divisions that come with the social heirarchy of his society. I think he doesn't really care about his status. On the other hand, Nick always seems really defensive when he's talking about his life as it relates to the parties. So I don't think he's concerned with class, but he's concerned with being above it.

alexf said...

MacM~
Actually I think that Nick wants to be a combination of both. I think he wants to conform to society and actually BE Gatsby. I feel that Nick needs to conform to society first so that Gatsby likes him, and then become just like Gatsby. In a way, I think that Gatsby is a sort of mentor to Nick.

sabrinad said...

Ok let me clairfy. Being selfish does not make him evil or bad just selfish. You can also change selfishness overtime and this may happen. Maybe he deserves to be selfish after doing so many unselfish thing.

catem said...

Melissa~ Why do you thin that Wolfsheim talks about Rosy Rosenthal and the Old Metropole? How does this relate to the story?

ParkerH said...

Sabrina-
I didn't say he was doing the best option, or what may seem like the best option, but stil. If you were Daisy, would you like some guy you hardly know, or don't know/remember at all to show up at your door or call you and say "hey, I really like you"? Awkward/creepy much? Granted, he could potentially deal with it better than he is, but nobody's perfect, and he's trying his best. What EXACTLY would you have him do?

jordans said...

I think Gatsby’s love of Daisy makes him more relatable and more of a charasmatic character. I think he doesn’t want to put his love out there for tohers to criticize because it does make him more reltable and I think he wants to keep to himself more and not have tons of understanding sympathy from others.

melissaz said...

Matt- I feel that is a really dark idea to have about this character. He does have a soul, but he has always had everything provided. It may not be seen as powerful, or strong, but he isn't heartless or souless in my opinion. But hey, I am an optimist and I don't like branding this man as one with no soul :)

sabrinad said...

Parker-Yah it'd be creepy but he's already a creep so it doesnt matter. He just needs to contact her himself and face the risk of rejection.

MattN said...

Parker: I think he totally could do that and Tom would just flip out! And he honestly deserves to be hurt after what he is doing to Daisy! If Daisy is smart, even though against her religion, she would go with Gatsby!

melissaz said...

Jordan- I completely agree about your comment on Gatsby. He now feels like a real character and this new information allows me to give him more credit.

alexf said...

SabrinaD~
Is that okay though? If you are unselfish your entire life, is it okay to become selfish suddenly to “balance” everything out? (Granted I’m not sure who you’re talking about, but still…)

macm said...

Alexf- I get that feeling too. Like it's impossible for Nick to be his own man, he just wants to be Gatsby. Good thought!

AllisonS said...

Kenna,

I really agree with what you said...


I don't think it's that Gatsby's allowing them to gossip about him, I think it's that he just doesn't care. He only cares about Daisy and beyond that it doesn't matter who says anything about him. Anyone who knows Gatsby real well, will know he hasn't done anything the rumors have claimed, which is why Daisy wouldn't believe anything either....

I never saw it this way and I think you really hit on what Fitzgerald was actually trying to get at. He seems to only care about Daisy... she absorbs him.

Maddie.Turley said...

Melissa~

I completely agree with your comment:

"I think there is a part of Gatsby that is a little shy. He knows what he wants, but this subject of finding this love really hurts him. He has a hard time actually coming out to and saying something. I think this realization makes Gatsby an even better character, giving a rhyme and reason to his royal actions, making him more realistic."

I believe that loving somebody is hurting him, because he knows it's just out of his reach. Just like in Fitgerald's life, everything he wanted was within his reach but the thing he wanted most.

clarao said...

I love Melissa's comment about Gatsby being a little shy, it makes a lot of sense and helps explain so many of Gatsby's actions.

kristinah said...

catem said...
Morgant~ I think that Gatsby allows all of the gossip to happen so that nobody ever suspects his real pain or troubles.

Catem- I think that this is a really point, I was wondering why he would just let all that go on without intervening in it and I think that is a really good idea!

aaronw said...

I agree with DelaneyN, saying that Gatsby is a chill guy. He really just goes with the flow.

josed said...

macm: I totally agree that Nick is trying to be like Gatsby. A small-town 'kid' coming to New York to make his fortune selling bonds will aspire to riches-- especially if you live in a cardboard apartment next to a castle. Yet it's impossible for Nick, as he is swept up in a different age than Gatsby, and is under different circumstances.

prestonK said...

Matt-
You have to keep in mind that Gatsby went through the war just after being in love with Daisy. He had to leave her for years without even knowing if he would ever see her again. He also had to move on after coming back, once learning that his love was with another man...

nicolek said...

Melissa Z- I compeletely agree with you that Gatsby is shy and the idea of love is scary even more so with Daisy because the barrier between them has become so great. Also he doesn't know if reality will not be as wonderful as how he built her up in his head

KelseyL said...

Alexf

I like what you said about why Gatsby is so secretive. I never really thought about it that way. It kind of makes his personality more clear.

maddieh said...

Jordan- I agree with your comment about Gatsby not being selfish wanting Daisy back. He just misses her and regrets that he lost his chance. If anything, I think he is just being childish for putting off asking her for so long.

brennanl said...

Melissaz-
I like your idea that Gatsby is shy, and his actions are based around that fact; it helps to understand the character much more.

Sethd said...

Karly
I really like the connection you made with the pearls. It shows some new things about Daisy.

jacqui said...

alexf
I totally agree with what you said about it being creepy that Gastby is SO head over heals infatuated with Daisy! and looked in the news papers to try and find her name. Its very weird..

jkeefer said...

MattN- Your first question, I believe that gatsby is throwing parties only because he wants to see who is in Daisy's net of friends. This way he can become close to them and casually position himself into the life of Daisy. Gatsby doesn't seem like the fellow that just jumps into a relationship, but uses a more sly method.

RayS said...

Marissa~ I agree with you thought about the persued... because the whole book seems to be about persuit of a dream and deception.

LeslieL said...

Whitney and Cate,
I like how you guys brought in the quote at the beginning of the book. I remember reading it but not really considering it. Your connections seem to really work with what's going on the in book so far.

MollyS said...

Sabrina- You said that you think that Gatsby wanted to meet up with Daisy again in order to have an affair like Tom and Myrtle are having. I totally disagree! Why would Gatsby have waited to long to have pursued the affair if all that he had wanted was a short, weak affair??

Kate- I agree with you about Tom not really caring for Daisy, he was cheating on her from the very start of their relationship, and he hasn't made any sort of effort to change!

Lauren- I love your interpretation of this quote! I never really thought about it that way!

helenp said...

Catem
-I agree with you about Gatsby. He is obsessed with winning Daisy, but his relationships with other people are basically nonexistant. He never bothers to get to know anyone or allows others to truely get to know him.

Alyssa S. said...

Rachel- I really liked the way you explained Gatsby when you commented,"he's hiding in plain sight." I had always thought about that concept, but I could never put it in words, and you explained it perfectly!

catherinec said...

Rose- We didn't really get around discussing Mr. Wolfshiem and his part in Gatsby's life. You brought in a really thought provoking question! I think that this man just shows the "cheap" side of Gatsby's life for his buttons are made of peoples molars instead something more expensive. It was also interesting that Mr. Wolfshiem was a criminal and that Gatsby was tolerant enough of deliquent behavior that he considered him as a friend.

matthewg said...

@ macm


I disagree that Nick wants to be like Gatsby. In fact, as time goes on, he seems increasingly wary and uncertain about Gatsby

ErinO said...

Hey Rachel
I love your response to Turley Topper's question! I also believe that Gatsby is hiding from something and someone, yet I have no clue what. It seems that he is hiding from himself. I get this because he keeps not telling the entire truth nor really showing what he truly is; he only shows what he has.

Hey Turley
I actually think he rather enjoys the parties. I beleive that he just wants to watch people and see how they react. I beleive this intrigues him in a way. His main goal is to find Daisy, but in the meantime, he is rather enjoying watching the spoils of man.

Kalyn K said...

Matt Nadel- Really? Okay, So I totally disagree with like everything your saying but your making some decent points. I don't think that Gatsby is creepy or obsevive. He gave up the one he loved and went to war but now thats he's back he no longer has the love of his life because she married someone else. It seems like he hasn't really had a chance to let go of her.

maddisonm said...

MattN- I was wondering the same thing about Tom and Daisy. I feel like Daisy was only trying to fulfill apart of her life that was missing, and Tom could care less because he cheats on her. I think that this says a lot about our society and how some people marry for the wrong reasons.

Dennis K said...

I would like to respond to a post by Delaney N. She said:

"I'm confused.. I feel like Gatsby acts the way he does at parties to uphold his reputation, but at the same time it doesn't seem like Gatsby cares what people think. Why would he be so concerned about his reputation if he doesn't care what people think about him..?"

I'm actually inclined to disagree with this statement. Consider how Gatsby was constantly trying to convince Nick that he shouldn't believe "the stories he hears about him [Gatsby]." Gatsby does care about what other people think of him.