Tuesday, August 26, 2008

Live Blogging: Unnatural Killers

As you listen to the inner circle discussion, offer your own thoughts and comments here. The outer circle can and should use the blog to have its discussion; as always, be sure to clarify to whom you are responding.

Please follow professional blogging guidelines: Use proper punctuation, capitalization, and complete sentences. Hit the F5 key to refresh so that you can see new comments.

Have fun!

161 comments:

KiraW said...

Grisham makes many good points about how the influence of the movie is a main leading cause to call them to kill. Stone makes a great counter attack by saying that there have been many deaths and murders due to drugs and alcohol, but there are no lawsuits that are calling the brewery’s to shut down. What side do you take on this?

alexf said...

Ok, in regards to the question that was just up. (It said,"can pieces of literature or film push someone over the edge?"), if you really think about it, anything could! Last year when we read LOF, someone could be reading the piece of literature and then say, ohhh, I want to be like them, and that could be "pushing them over the edge!" Then they could start acting like the savage boys...and would we sue the author?!

amyw said...

Testing

chelseas said...

Kira- You brought up the same question that I was going to ask. I think that there are many different arguments to support both sides of the issue. I think that Grisham makes a good point, but that he should have taken into account more of the possible triggers for these two kids.

whitneys said...

Kiraw - I am so torn on this issue. I do not condone the first amendment protecting things that are immoral like the movie, yet I do believe that people are respondsible for their own choices. But I feel like movies are very influential and demons are out there.


What do you guys think about the fact of morals in the constitution? I mean I deem the killer movie immoral, but should that make a difference in the fist ammendment?

delaney n said...

Soemone made the point that not all violence is the same. I feel like there is no justifiable difference. How do you feel about that?

jordans said...

I think rating is important in both movies and video games but sometimes it doesn’t matter. People can find ways to get something rated for an older audience. Just the same way people under twenty one can get alcohol. They are more just guidelines than rules.

shannanp said...

I don't think that games with a real life situation shouldn't be allowed to be bought by people under about 21 because they aren't mature enough to disifer reality and the game.

meganu said...

I really don't think it was logical for Grisham to blame the movie over what Sarah and Ben did. How could it be the movie's fault? Sure, it could've given them ideas on what to do, but it was really Ben and Sarah's choice in the first place. They both had terrible backgrounds and proof that they already had psychological problems. Sure, the movie could have showed them new possibilities on how to think and how to kill people, but the movie couldn't take the full blame. I thought it was stupid that that's what Grisham did.

amyw said...

alexf---Yeah, I agree that it's kind of wrong to blame the author because you read their book and it "pushed you over the edge." I mean, in order to get to the edge, so to speak, something had to have happened. And that's not the author's fault!

KarlyH said...

Why is it that 18 is the magic number where someone is sudenly able to handle the nagative influences of a video game?

Laurenc said...

In regards to the inner circle. I believe that you should pay attention to the ratings on a game but also I don't believe that video games cause children or teens to be more violent. If a child has a natural tendency to be agressive then don't give them a war game! I started playing video games when I was 7 and I went around and killed monsters but you don't see my trying to shoot people now.

kennaw said...

I take Stone's side because the movie can't actually persuade someone completely to go and do something that bad. There has to be something else behind there story. Like family problems, drug issues, alcohol issues and more. You have to already be so mad and depressed that the movie is just what makes yo ufeel like that's okay and just maks you think they did so therefore I can too. I don't think ben and Sarah did that from only watching the movie. They had other problems before that too.

Madisont said...

Stone reminds me that an artist tries to just portray the world as they see it, not create it. Stone didn't "create" Ben and Sarah to be murderers. Their lives were constantly leading them up to it. Once they watched the video, it just pushed them over the edge. I definitely think it's very individualistic to a person's life. It really depends on a person's maturity and if they would be able to handle it.

jordans said...

In regards to Delaney's question I agree that there are various genres of violence. It can be mental, physical, emotional.No matter we do there will always be some kind of violence.

melissaz said...

I can see why Grisam was saying that the video was partially at fault, but the counter point was very strong. I think that Ben was a time bomb just ready to go off, the video just set that off. I feel that if a fictional video could cause a murder like this, then I feel it would have happened eventually. Maybe from a news paper article talking about a very elaborate murder that would give him a thrill to commit his own murder.

EmilyJ said...

I think children under 18 should not be able to purchase violent video games, but it mostly depends on the maturity of the person. If he or she fully understands that the the violence contained within the video game is both unreal and unnacceptable, then it won't have much effect on that person's behavior.

Laurenc said...

karlyh - I agree. I play rated M games and I'm only 15. It doesn't mean I'm a warped person who can't determine right from wrong.

kennaw said...

Alex I completey agree with that! I think watching the movie is what pushed Ben and Sarah over the edge. Exactly!

morgant said...

alex- I definitely agree with you! Just like in "Unnatural Killers" Grisham is blaming the acts of murder on that movie. That pushed the kids over the edge to commit those two crimes. Also, in the article we read this morning, the student named his gun after a character in the movie (or something like that). That in my mind is very disturbing. If those crimes didn't have any influence by the media, how do you explain that?

MattN said...

@ Delaney i really think that there is a huge distinct difference between things like cartoon difference and Call of Duty Violence. There is a difference between cartoon violence thats humorous, and call of duty violence that is like real life especially with the war going on right now!

alexf said...

AmyW~
Exactly! The only reason I bring up sueing the author of a book that pushes you over the edge is because this is an English class and obviously, more people in this class read than play video games... so I'm just trying to make it "closer to home" (so to speak) for them.

whitneys said...

alexf- I see where you are comming from! How can we blame the author of a book for the boys behavior. But LOTF also talks about an evil in all of us that is waiting to come out.


Could the problem be with us as humans, the evil to make this movie or the evil to become killers? I do not know.

mollyd said...

Kira- I really can’t make a decision because both Stone and Grisham have a good point. I think though their upbringing is what made them who they are and the alcohol and drugs had a big part. I think the movie however had planted a seed in them and it grew very rapidly. So I don’t blame the whole movie but it definitely had an impact.

amyw said...

meganu---I was thinking the same things as you as I was reading the article! It's not Oliver Stone's fault that Sarah and Ben had psychological problems that caused them to commit the murders. How could he have predicted that anyway? He couldn't have, obviously. To me, Grisham was just trying to find a scapegoat.

marissas said...

I really agree with Hannah's comment. Violent video games definentely played a role in the Columbine shooting. These games should be made in such a way that they don't promote random acts of killing. So, I think there should be an age limit on purchasing mature rated video games. But, I also feel that that may be taking away our freedoms and human rights.

meganu said...

karly- I agree! Why is it 18? A 15 year old could be more mature than an 18 year old but why does that 18 year old get the ability to do all these things?

sdermody said...

I agree with Lexi there are many things that can influence bad choices. We can't put a limit on everything.

morganw said...

Delany - I agree. Violence is violence. There shouldn't be a difference. The only difference in ratings for movies and video games is the amount of violence, not the degree of violence.

chelseas said...

Alex-good point! I think that kids, as well as adults are easily influenced by the media. I think this may have helped push them over the edge but that they were probably planning to do that sooner or later. I think that there are many things that people could be sued for. If were to look at the millions of things that people could be sued for, there would be lawsuits going on forever. There is always going to be someone out there who disagrees with some issue.

morgant said...

Megan- That is the whole point. Ben and Sarah were influenced by the movie. Grisham was not blaming the movie totally, he was just trying to point out that the movie, and things like that do influence people. He was trying to get people to really think about that, and try to get people to think about if that is really moral or not.

shannanp said...

Karly-I don't think that 18 should be the magic number at all-it seems that people that age have a harder time grasping reality than even some people our age. I think that its hard to tell what age should be the magic age because girls mature faster than boys-its a fact and also that a 15 year old could in fact be more mature than someone who is twenty. Anyone's opinion on what age would be just because of all of the factors.

EmilyJ said...

I agree with Melissaz. Obviously, Ben wasn't mature enough to handle the violence he saw in the movie. It really motivated him and he felt like he had the need to kill. He said that is was "Satisfying", but how? How could murdering people possibly make you feel good about yourself? Any comments on this?

MattN said...

morganw- i disagree with you also i think there is a difference between funny cartoon violence and call of duty real life violence

KiraW said...

Molly, I think that you are right on on that comment. They may have been messed up to begin with, but the movie did somewhat push them over the edge.

amyw said...

meganu---I agree with that too! I get mad sometimes because you're not allowed to do all this stuff until you're 18, but what if you're mature enough? There are a lot of 15 year olds (and even younger) that are more mature than some 18 year olds.

Laurenc said...

marissas - How can you be sure the video game played a role in the shooting? I completely blame the shooters. Unless you are mentally unstable you should know that there is a difference between right and wrong. There should have been people around them that monitered how violent they were acting. I don't think the video really have anything to do with them

KateP said...

I think that the parents should step in when it comes to children under the age of 18 buying violent video games. Parents know how mature their child is and if they can handle the game.

morgant said...

Molly- I definitely agree with you. The movie was not the only thing that influenced Ben and Sarah, but it was definitely a factor. Obviously they had psychological problems, but the movie could definitely play a part in that.

shannanp said...

I think that the author's of such violent thing such as movies, books and games need to take some ownership, it's definitley not all of the teenager's ideas. I think that its unfair if they can't take that responsibility when they think of all of these incredibly violent stories. It's just not fair.

marissas said...

Morgant, I totally agree. All the blame wasn't placed on the movie. But these video games/movies do influence people and the people that make these games or movies needs to realize that what they put in the movie of game could cause someone to end someone's life.

morgant said...

Kate- That is definitely a good point. Not only must the law play a part, but the child's parent definitely has a responsibility for their child. They know how mature their kid is, just like the parents figure out if the kid is old enough and experienced enough to drive on their own, or with other people in the car.

meganu said...

Morgan- I agree that the movie could have influenced them in a sense that it provided ideas, but anything in the world could have provided that influence for them. That movie shouldn't be pinpointed to the point that it gets blamed for influencing teenagers to kill others.

KiraW said...

Emily, I know! I find it really hard to belive that killing someone would make you feel good about your self.

kennaw said...

I really feel like movies and video games don't effect the way people feel towards other humans. My brother is a videogame expert but he's still got his head on straight. He isn't mad, sad, or motivated to shoot people. He's still the same old Kahlor.

I don't think it depends on the videogame or the movie they're watching, i think it depends on what the person is feeling and how their life is and what's going on in it at the time.

What do you guys think?

roser said...

ok I have a question about Sarah....so she said she was possessed by demons during her killing, but if you were possessed would you know that and still be?

amyw said...

emilyj---He was psychologically disturbed because of his difficult past. The only person that would say that murdering people would make you feel good about yourself is someone who is psychologically disturbed. Most people, if they killed someone, would feel horrible and their conscience would eat at them. They would feel remorse (it said in the article that Ben thought remorse was a sign of weekness). But it's different for someone like Ben.

EmilyJ said...

Kate- I agree. Parents know their children best and that should be the deciding factor. They will know if their child is mature enough to see the violence and not act on it.

alexf said...

morgant~
I agree that the media must have had some play on the boys that named their guns after the video game character but, couldn't they just love video games? There isn't anything wrong with that. What I mean is, say I'm obsessed with whales. If I named my gun Shamu, would you blame it on my love for whales?! (Let me know if that makes sense :D )

melissaz said...

Whitney- I have a hard time with that too. I don't think that violent videos and games are right, and videos with other bad things on them. But if we begin to really censor games and movies, where could it go in the future? Movie's and games are some form of personal expression and people should be able to express their positions, but there seems to be a limit. Some acts of violence or very negative points can really cross a line; but everyone has their own line.

KarlyH said...

The shooters were victims of society but they were not the only ones that have ever been bullied in school. If everyone who had ill feelings towards a person or idea acted in the way they did, our world would be alot more messed up. They made a choice and calling them victims is simply giving them a get out of jail free card for a very wrong action they choose to do that affeceted alot of people.

chelseas said...

Molly-I completely agree with you in the sense that those kids would have done it anyway, and that the movie just was the final point that pushed then to committ the murder. I think that they were always going to do that anyone, and that they had some mental problems in the first place.

amyw said...

roser---I think she thought she was possessed. There's no such thing as being possessed by demons, but because she wasn't psychologically stable she thought she was.

mollyd said...

Kate- I agree with you. I think parents need to know what is going on with their children. They need to be a part of their kids lives so if they see something that might be dangerous then they can try to help.

marissas said...

Shannon, I agree with you that its hard to live in a society in which violency is not always treated as a bad thing. But, I don't think the people that make movies and games need to take ownership for the teenagers actions. They just need to realize the effect that their movie/game has on people.

sdermody said...

I feel that no matter what we do, there will always be some sort of violence in our world. People can and will always be exposed to it in some way. I personally feel that if we block video games we are not solving the problem compleltly. Does anybody agree? Disagree?

morgant said...

Lauren- I know you are asking marissa, but I want to answer haha. True, the kids were mentally unstable. But, like a lot of movies they have influences on people. If the kids were already unstable mentally, and then they watched the movie, that could definitely haver pushed them off the edge and propel them to do the crimes. It is not completely to blame, but definitely a factor. Here is an example. If any of you have seen August Rush, after I saw that movie, I wanted to go and play an instrument. I don't know that you guys had that same reaction, but that's what I thought and felt.

morganw said...

Mattn - Yes, I see your point, but blowing up Jerry is just as bad when you get down to it as blowing up an Iraqi soldier. When you get down to it, neither Tom & Jerry nor Call of Duty show the consequences of such violence.

lizc said...

I think that it is interesting how Grisham was laying charges against other people, but he himself has also written some disturbing pieces of liturature. I don't understand how he can do that becuase it really isn't very fair. What do you think about that? Why does he consider himself non-influential with what he writes?

kennaw said...

Emily~
i don't think it's that they wanted to kill themselves to make themselves feel better at all. I think it was because they knew what their options would be in life after what they had just done. They felt tlike there was no where else they could go or anywhere to make them happy. So, they shot themselves because they felt their life already sucked, and they knew it wouldn't get better so they saved themselves grief.

kennaw said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
morgant said...

Sabrina- I agree with you. I don't think taking away video games will solve the problem completely. But, in other words, like if kids only 18 or over can buy very violent video games, we can minimize it, but by no means stop it completely.

alexf said...

KennaW~
I agree! I think the media will obviously have an influence, but I really don't think that playing a video game can cause someone to go crazy! If so, we'd all be insane!

lizc said...

In my opinion, Tom and Jerry is a cartoon and therefore does not impact people as much because it does not look real. It is making a cat and mouse do human things and it is very unrealistic. Violent video games, such as Halo, are 3D and look very life like.

KiraW said...

Rose, I think that she thought that she saw a demon and shot at it, she didnt think that she was being possesed by demons

amyw said...

karlyh---I agree completely! Saying that they were victims and they were bullied is just making up an excuse for them. They are blaming the bullies and using them as scapegoats. Being bullied is not a reason to participate in a school shooting. If the bullying bothered them so much, they should have found someone to talk to or something like that, before it went as far as the shooting. Our society likes to find scapegoats, and this situation is no different.

sdermody said...

Liz, I thought the same exact thing. If he is attacking the visual violence why shoudln't he also attack the litature that portrays the same thing, just in a different form.

marissas said...

Laurenc, I don't think that the games and movies should be completely blamed. I think all the blame should be placed on the teenagers. I was just saying that things like this might show the companies what their products are capable of doing to a few people. But they are definetely not responsible for the deaths.

morganw said...

Lizc - Whether or not the violence "looks" real, it's still a representation of violence.

Oliviak said...

We have to have the first amendment because then if it is taken away then we won’t have freedom of speech. So you can’t have it both ways. Protect the video game and us or neither.

morgant said...

Liz- that is an excellent point! I understand your concern. I think Grisham was only blaming the movie partly because the crime was a copycat of the crime in the movie. There really have been no copycat crimes of any of his books. I think that is how he wanted it to come across. And, Grisham, again, is not blaming the movie entirely.

kennaw said...

Sabrina~
I completeyl agree. And by taking away the videogames, I think that will justm cause more violence and outrage in people who videogames are their life. Whether it's making them or playing them. It still won't solve the violence by taking those away because that's not all that's causing violence.

lizc said...

morgan- like the inner circle said, even if you do take away games for kids less than 18 to get they will still find a way to get it into their hands. If they want it then they will get it.

chelseas said...

Karly-I agree with you about how the shooters were messed up in the first place, and that if everyone had their same thoughts, then there would be so many killers in the world. Just because of these actions, many people were killed, and their families are torn forever. I think that the boys should have dealt with their bullying issues in a much different way.

alexf said...

Couldn't Ben and Sarah just be blaming the movie to blame someone?! It would definitly lessen their punishment!

roser said...

amyw-I think you're right on the whole, but kind of off topic I believe that people can be possessed by demons, whether they be drugs or alcohol. But also literally they can be too. See I'm Catholic and a preist friend of ours asked us to house this possessed lady before he preformed an exorsim. When she came to church with us she was shaking all over the entire time. I don't really remember it but my parents have a vivid memory.

amyw said...

Even if we made a law saying you have to be 18 to get violent video games, people would still find a way to get them if they were under 18. It would minimize the number of people under 18 getting them, but it wouldn't stop it by any means. If people want to get something, age limits aren't going to stop them.

KateP said...

sdermody- I agree with you. There will always be violence. Just because they ban violent video games, the violence will not go away. I think that if the video games were banne.d, it could help cut back on violence

lizc said...

morganw- so mario kart is "violent" because you are shocking other cars and knocking them out with turtle shells?

mollyd said...

Liz- I think Grisham found himself exempt because he was writing and everyone has their own interpretation of literature, but Stone’s was visual so you see everything and there is not a whole lot of room for difference. I do find it weird though that he himself has written violent things and is accusing someone of what he has done.

morgant said...

Alex- Well, they weren't blaming the movie. Grisham was blaming the movie partly. Ben and Sarah admitted to their crimes, although Sarah got out of it mostly. They were just testifying that they saw the movie before the trip.

amyw said...

roser---I see what you mean by metaphorical demons, like drugs or alcohol. But I think Sarah was thinking of literal demons...

marissas said...

alexf, I think you were right on the dot with that last comment. They were messed up in the first place, they just don't want to get in trouble!

meganu said...

Alex- That's what it sounded like to me. They could have taken advantage of the little evidence for the murders and made stories up that would make it look like it was the movie's fault. At the same time though, I'm not sure they were smart enough to plan it out that well just to lessen their blame.

melissaz said...

Kenna- I agree, mostly. I think it is a person being individual and the life they have that has more influence of what they do with their life. Movie's or video games could be a very small part but I think that people are more influenced by the environment they live in and their own life. But, there are people that are really influenced by video games and movies; and to me and I'm sure other's, we don't understand this. People that have a strong mental state and can tell the difference between fiction and fact, aren't really pursuaded by the media as much as someone without their own strong opinions and moral systems.

lizc said...

morgant- Grisham only mentioned some of the troubled things that occured in their lives. He was laying most of the blame on the movie and I think that he was doing that because, unlike a book, you are actually viewing the things happening. In a book you have to use your imagination.

morgant said...

Liz- very true, and good point. Video games would still be around and stuff, and some kids would be playing them. I know that because a lot of my friends have seen R rated movies and such. I just think it would minimize it. Like I said, not eliminate it, but maybe minimize the whole thing.

roser said...

amyw- Yeah I see what you mean, but considering her mental state, I think that she might have actually seen the woman as a demon, if she had been abusing drugs, alcohol, and had been in treatment.

morganw said...

To Everyone - Hmmm...I was thinking about this while reading and annotating this yesterday. It seemed to be implied that HollyWood and any and all lawyers only care about the money involved with a production or a case. That their moral and 1st ammendment views change with the amount of cash they'll be recieving. Which brings me around to my question. Is all of this really just a ploy for money? Are money and power behind everything in the media? Or just a few? How/how not?

lizc said...

mollyd- yes, I agree. Actually I didn't see your comment till now so I posted the same thing!

amyw said...

I think it's easier to blame something that's fiction (like a movie). Rather than blaming the actual people for committing the murders and trying to sort out their psychological problems, the movie gets blamed. It's kind of like taking the easy way out.

alexf said...

Honestly, America is obsessed with blaming others. Couldn't the "other cases" be teens saying, "look, that movie deal worked for those teens, let's try that!!!"

morgant said...

Liz- Yeah, Grisham did lay a lot of the blame on the movie, but I still don't think he was blaming it completely. As he said, he was like they did have emotional problems and were mentally unstable. But, the movie had an influence.

amyw said...

roser---That's true. Since her problems and stuff were possessing her mind, it's very possible that she saw the woman as a demon.

KiraW said...

. If you were one of the family members of the murdered people, how would you respond? Would you side with Grisham in saying that the movie was a leading cause that drove those young people to murder and robbery, or would you have said that they were probably just troubled teens that happened to see a movie that really had nothing to do with them killing your loved family member?

EmilyJ said...

kennaw- I agree with you on what you said about how it all depends how the person is feeling when they play or are exposed to violent games. Are they depressed?Are they angry? Or are they the happiest person on earth? It all depends. Happy people exposed to violence probably won't be afftected, whereas angry people could very possibly be pushed over the edge to go kill someone. But I mean let's say you take a survey of people ages 13 to 20. Just random people. Happy people, sad people, a whole variety. And say you exposed all of them to a violent killing game. How many of them do you think would go murder someone afterwards? Not very many. I guess what I am saying is that this is a VERY rare occasion and people who are motivated to kill are obviously emotionally unstable. So in the end, I don't think it is the video game, I think it is the person.

chelseas said...

Alex-yes I totally agree with you. That was one of the questions that I had for our discussion. I mean would these kids have killed all of those people even if they had not watched the movie? I think that this was an outlet for them to say that they were under the "influence of spirits and demons" instead of taking the full blame.

KarlyH said...

Amy-
Sorry this is a little off topic but I just wanted to say I disagree with your comment that there is no such thing as being posessed by demons. I think that in this story's case, she is using that as an excuss and it may not be the truth but I do believe that demon possision does exist.

lizc said...

alexf- what about the whole thing about sarah seeing a "demon" before she shot the lady in the store? Don't you think that there might be something wrong with that picture, or do you really think that she would go so extreem as to make that up to get out of the situation?

morganw said...

Lizc - yes, and so it playing football. I'm not saying that violence is in everything and therefore everything should be blamed, I'm just saying that violence is a fact of life and to ban every movie that has "more" violence than another is just an excuse for something else. Violence is violence, BUT the way it is portrayed can have more or less of an effect on the people viewing/exposed to it. I hope that clears up what I'm trying to say a little bit more.

shannanp said...

Videogamers:
Have you ever felt like doing something violent after playing a game? Do you feel different when or after playing?

whitneys said...

oliva k ~ I agree with you about the first amendment. But I was also thinking that the first amendment was written in a different time. I feel that our society as a whole has lost morals, and I believe that the writers of the constitution did not think that people would use the freedom of speech immorally.

Yet again, censorship can go too far like in 1984.

again...is it a problem with us as people?

lizc said...

karlyh- I believe that being possesed with demons happens all the time to different people for different reasons.

Madisont said...

To Everyone- I'm very curious to know this. I realize that movies are very harmful with the events that occur within them. It's hard to view images that make some of us shudder and make others of us laugh. But consider the material you read as well. I almost think that's more dangerous because it leaves it up to your imagination. If a kid has had a bad life, and they read a book with the wrong material in it, does it not leave it up to their imagination on what to do, or how to copy something that happens?

It's not the thrill of watching it as most of us know. It's more the mystery surrounding it because you are forced to imagine what the situation is instead of viewing it.

Agree, disagree?

delaney n said...

I do not believe that the movie had a major impact on Ben and Sarah's crime, but I believe that there was a slight impact.

Does anyone believe the movie had absolutely zero effect on the teens?

alexf said...

Kiraw~
That is the only reason I'm split on this story! For the most part, I really want to just blame the kids and how dumb they were, but as I think about it, if I was the Mom, I'm pretty sure I'd want to blame the movie! Who knows?!?!

meganu said...

Morgan- Still, if the movie had that big of an influence, why didn't everyone who watched it have the same response to go out and kill people? Ben and Sarah couldn't have been the only people who had problems who watched that movie and went out and killed people. I know it said that there were other people, but I would think that there would have been a bigger response when we were informed about those other people.

lizc said...

morganw- Ok, I see where you are coming from now! I was a little confused on what you were trying to say. Thanks for clearing that up.

morgant said...

Kira- that is a very different point of view. I think that if I was a family member of the teen, I would admit that they were mentally unstable, but the movie eventually gave them ideas. I mean, we don't know if the kids would have killed, or shot the victims if they hadn't seen the movie. Oliver Stone argues that they would have done it anyway, but how does he really know?

melissaz said...

Alex- I agree with you and many others. Blaming others is very easy, but taking resposibility for our own actions is very hard but what needs to happen. And America is full of people and companies and groups that spend their time blaming other groups and people rather than taking resposibility and making things better. We could save so many problems and get a better start on making this country and world better if people would take responsibility.

amyw said...

karlyh---Do you believe that demons can be like drugs or alcohol? Like metaphorical demons? Because it sounds like Sarah thought she was being possessed by literal demons...

Oliviak said...

Lizc
Sara went to the extreem. Her backround is also what played a role in it.

mollyd said...

Kira- I am not really sure what I would think but I would probably believe it was a little bit of both. I think though the people who lose love ones want to say it was the movie because it is something to blame and fight against. They want to think something pushed the teens instead of just doing it for the heck of it.

whitneys said...

lizc ~ I am going to get a little spiritual here. I believe demons do exsist and are preying on us whenever they can. Perhaps she made it up, but I believe it could happen because demons try to get us to do bad things.

This is just my personal belief and opinion.

KiraW said...

Whitney, I think that you are totally right. We live in a very different society than the one that was existing whn the first amendment was written. We have lost morals.

alexf said...

MeganU~
Exactly! Great point! Nobody else really reacted to this movie. The had to have had something in their lifestyle/past to fuel this urge and then the movie just pushed them a little over the edge!

KateP said...

morganw- I think money and power is a huge part of everything about Hollywood. I believe that there are a few people who are in it for the right reasons.

morganw said...

Lizc - of course ;) I was slightly distracted when writing the earlier posts, so I ended up writing some misleading things.

amyw said...

delaneyn---I believe that it could have had a small impact. It wasn't the main thing that caused them to do what they did; like I said earlier, it could've pushed them over the edge, but something made them get to the edge (in this case, their troubled pasts and psychological problems).

roser said...

whitneys- I totally agree with you that demons, whether or not the ones with torches and horns, are real and influence people all the time.

chelseas said...

Madison-I agree with that comment. I think that this is a great comment and I totally agree. I think that this is an instance where a book may be much more deadly than a movie because, like you said, they are left to their own interpretation of the book.

morgant said...

Megan- good point, I think that the kids were put in the perfect opportunity after the movie, because both teenagers, mentally unstable, were together, seen the movie and the killings, and thought it would have been a good idea. Good point about the other people also. I think that is definitely a good question. But, then again, why did Ben and Sarah's crimes pretty much copycat the movie? There were people with problems like that in the theater, I'm sure, but we don't know if they were presented the opportunity. Ben and Sarah had power over each other. They were together for a long time, and had influence. If they were together without guidance, it could easily happen.

amyw said...

Money and power are big motivators. They can make people do almost anything.

morganw said...

katep - But what about in society in general? Do you still believe that? (I do!)

lizc said...

whitneys- don't worry, I am on the same page as you. Have you ever read books by a guy with the last name Paolini? He has a lot of spiritual books dealing with demons and angels in the real world and they are pretty interesting.

Madisont said...

Whitneys-- I completely agree with you. I believe that demons try to make us fail, want to watch us fall. If Ben and Sarah are good kids, as it was originally suggested, then what happened? They went from studious, intelligent kids, to killing murderous machines... Very unusual.

shannanp said...

Most of the teens who do go on killing sprees just want to be remebered because they went through so much pain from being bullied, they want everyone else to feel that pain?

Do you think that there is a different way these troubled teens could reach out to people and let them feel their pain without mass murdering?

morgant said...

Whitney, I definitely agree! I agree strongly with you on the spiritual world!

whitneys said...

delaneyn~ I think the movies are respondsible. even though it might be only a little, why would we let something that even contributes to murder or crime?

amyw said...

Our culture likes to place responsibility and accountability on other people. No one ever wants to admit that they could be responsible. It's much easier, in our culture's point of view, to blame someone else, to find a scapegoat.

KarlyH said...

Amy-
I think that there are metaphorical demons but i also think there are very real non-metaphorical demons.

marissas said...

Our culture's perception of responsibility and accountability is that teenagers should be held responsible for their own actions, even though it is very likely that somewhere along the line the blame will be placed on someone (or something) else.

morgant said...

I really do believe that our society believes it is everyone for themselves. Sure, we help people a lot, but if you screw up, it is your fault. Then we start shifting the blame and then people go to that person and blame them. We don't want to be held accountable, so we simply shift the blame. That is definitely an example of how we know it is our fault, but we don't want people to think that, so we shift the blame. Usually, it works.

mollyd said...

In our culture no one wants to take responsibility. As many people have said the blame just keeps getting pushed around and no one ever takes it. Even when the blame is obvious for something they find a way to try and get out of it. I believe responsibility has gone way down and people abuse the privelege all the time.

morganw said...

Our culture has no sense of resposibility and accountability. Honestly, we don't. Not as a group. Individuals, yes, individuals have their own perceptions of how and why things should be like they are, but as a culture, no. It would be taking away from 1st ammendment rights to classify everyone as under one view of responsibility and accountability. Which I'm not quite sure I agree with or not, but I still believe that's how our culture is.

lizc said...

I think that our whole culture lays a lot of blame on teenagers. When you see graffiti, most people would blame things like that on teens. What about adults? I am sure that some adults are not responsible exspecially when it comes to raising their kids and teaching them about the world. In many ways everyone in our society definately has moments when they do something that would be considered unresponsable. Everyone makes mistakes and makes stupid decisions about all kinds of things.

Oliviak said...

Our cultures perception on responsibility and accountability is that you are responsible for anything you do unless you are under 18. Then in that case if you are under 18 then it s not your fault it someone else or you didn’t know any better.

kennaw said...

I think our culture thinks about responsibilty and accountabilitiy as how you handle yourself. How you keep up on life and don;t give up. How you take fault for your mistakes and learn form them, turn in homework on time, get to class on time, ect. Respobsibility is all put on yourself and on one can help you with that but I think our\ culture sees it as our parents job to make us responsible. I don't kn ow my thoughts are knida scattered on thios but that's the absics of what I think.

Laurenc said...

Our culture tends to place avoid taking responsibility and enjoys placing the blame on others. Almost no one ever confesses to being held responsible for their actions as you can clearly tell from the Unnatural Killers article. Our culture also often tends to avoid placing individual blame and seems to enjoy blaming a larger group for one person's actions. Such as blaming the parents, blaming a movie, blaming society.

shannanp said...

Our culture's perception of responsibility seems that if something goes wrong, who gets the blame? The perception of accountability seems to be synomonous with responsibility, who can be trusted to do things and once again who will be blamed when something goes wrong.

meganu said...

Our culture's perception of responsibility and accountability is very poor. I think someone who actually commits a crime is rarely blamed for it these days. Whether it's because of bribery or straight up lying, no one wants to be blamed for something especially when they can find ways that they don't have to be. Everyone's looking for a way out of what they've done, they don't want to take accountability so they do anything they can so they don't have to take responsibility.

roser said...

Our culture is very sterotypical about responsibility concerning teens. Many people, mostly the older crowd, think that teens are immature and are not to be trusted with such a thing. They think some of us will totally dismiss it and throw it out the window. And maybe I'm feel that way just because of my parents and past experiences.

EmilyJ said...

Our culture's perception of responsibility and accountablility is that for the most part, it is necessary, yet so many people don't have it. Responsibility is something you have to work for, and a lot of people are too lazy to do that. Responsibility is a huge part of life and should not be taken lightly. It makes a person stronger and I think every person should strive for it.

Ryad said...

Our coulture's perception of responsibliltiy and accountablility seems to be that if you can put the blame on someone else and save yourself then it is the logical choice to take. In "Unnatural Killers", like Hanna said, the blame was placed on everyone else util it became a circle. Even if a person is truly at fault it seems to be human nature to get out of taking resposibility for their actions. Or questions of morality and right from wrong seem to only make this easier.

Madisont said...

Our culture has lost all sense of responsibility. We all know the feeling. If we've done something wrong, and we know we might get caught, we immediately run through our heads, ideas on how to excuse ourselves. Excuses that help us get out of trouble. It's the same in our entire generation. We have lost all sense of accountability and responsibility because our perception is that we do not want to get in trouble for something we did. We do not want a mess on our hands when really, all it does is create a mess in everyone else's hands.

That's how messed up our world is today. It is human nature to want to do forbidden things, but once we do them and get caught, we can not face the consequences. We are selfish in nature, every person for themself. We never want to take the blame when someone else can.

sdermody said...

I think our cultures perception of responsibility and accountablility is very off. First of all it seems that hardly anyone actually takes responsibility for thier actions anymore. We also have become less and less acountable for keeping our word which also ties in with taking responsibility for our actions. Im not sure that humanity was ever good for being responsible for thier actions but it seems that now we are less acountable than ever

MollyS said...

Our culture sees responsibility as something that that they don't have to live up to really, as it is so easy to get off the hook for things that they have done. Just like in the article we read for homework last night, teens have no desire to take responsibility for their actions when they have done something very wrong. I don't think all kids are like that, but more times than not, if the lie is easy, a teen will take that over taking accountability for their actions.

KiraW said...

I think that our culture really doesn't care much about responcibility. There is so much of the typical "I didn't do it, they did". Of course not, why would we care who did it as long as there is someone to blame.

delaney n said...

Our culture seems to hold accountability above responsibility. Although someone may have committed a crime, they may not be responsible if someone or thing is held accountable. Culture today needs to sort out their priorities. People ultimately make their own choices. Sure, people are impacted by video games and movies, but people are influenced by everything everyday all the time. We cannot try to avoid every punishment with holding another aspect accountable. This is what our culture seems to often do and what our culture needs to overcome.

alexf said...

Our culture’s perception of responsibility and accountability is never the same. People are always teaching us to take responsibility for our actions but honestly, they also teach you how to blame others too. Pretty much in anything/everything someone does, if they mess up, they blame someone/something else. Those people who teach you to take responsibility for your actions do it also. I’m not saying that anyone is a horrible person for blaming someone or something else, it’s just so hard teach responsibility and act responsible at the same time. Like the saying, “Do as I say, not as I do!”

melissaz said...

I think that our culture viewes accountability as something that we are almost expected to do, something that we are always accountable to do. In a way I think that many teens are accountable to know the difference between right and wrong. I think resposibility is seen as something even more, not so much expected. Responsibility is much harder to follow through with than accountability. Resposibility is something that I think alot of our teenage generation has a hard time with resposibility.

KateP said...

I think that our culture's perception of responsibility and accountability is not taken very seriously. When it comes to responsibilty, many teenagers are very good at this and others not so much. I know many of my friends are responisible because I see them doing chores and getting their homework done.

chelseas said...

I think that our culture's perception of responsibility and accountability is very different than what it was in the past. Today, I think that people are not accountable for their actions, and that they find it much easier to blame someone else, instead of just admitting to it. I also think that people are not responsible, and that they fien it more convient to blame someone else. This also ties into the fact that people of today are "money hungry", and that they will do anything to make money. This relates to the Grisham and Stone discussion that we had earlier in class. If a person can make money as well as shoving the blame onto someone else, they will do it.

jordans said...

Our culture perception on responsibility is always blame someone else, even more so blame someone that people can easily blame and outcast. People constantly blame others for their own actions and get away with it, the key to getting away with it is having a plausible scapegoat. It’s not always a person that can be easily blamed, anything that has negative connections to society in peoples mind such as drugs, movies, television, video games, other societies, etc. A lot of people put protection over their reputation over other people.

hannahl said...

In our society, we are taught from a young age to be responsible for our own actions and for ourselves. However, from birth we are also frightened by the punishments for our actions. This leads to blaming others on what was done. When it comes to small things, like accidently dropping a glass beaker in lab, it is relatively easy to take responsability, leaving the person feeling good about themselves because of the responsability they took. On the other extreme side of the spectrum, however, are those who commit horrible crims and do not take responsability out of denial, and because they are trying to save themselves. This is because if they take responsability for such an action, they will be hated by many, including friends and family, and lose whatever life they previously had, good or bad. It is this fear of being a one-man band that leads to the endless cycle of blame our society takes part in. I have no clear solution for the problem because it is essentially a problem of human nature, but I do know that it is a horrible part of our society.

whitneys said...

I think our culture is very confused when it comes to respondsibility and accountability. As discussed, we almost always blame something or someone else for what we do and for our actions, such as the movies or our childhood making us kill people. Our culture is used to blaming other things and raising humans up to be innocent poeple who are influenced by the horrors of this world. But do not we create the world? Perhaps they do not lie on the poeple, but the entire culture. Our culture is very confused when it comes to respondsibility and accountability.

MattN said...

Well, because blogger is stupid and deleted my original response, essentially, society tries to put full responsibility on lots of people, but for the most part, someone finds a scapegoat somehow and blames someone else. Its all about passing on the blame.

KarlyH said...

I think that our culture has lost its ability to hold people acountable for their actions. Many times when a mistake is made the blame is shifted or people don't take responsibility for their actions. I think that a good example of this would be how by making a immunity agreement when they are in trouble with the law, people can get out of trouble by selling out other people and shifting the blame.

macm said...

I feel like our culture's perspective of accountability anfd responsibility is tragically skewed. When you look at stories like the "Natural Killers" story and just everyday life, I feel like people are geeting away with murder, literally. How can we expect to stop said killers when they know that they can weasel their way out of responsibility by blaming someone else for their actions? I believe that this is something that is engrained in the brains of youth everywhere by their parents, teachers, etc. Yet, we cannot lead in the belief that people are basically evil, or regress back to the Qing dynasty of China. So what is the answer? I think that it starts with basic laws and guidelines to show each generation the correct way to conduct themselves.

rachels said...

I feel like our culture's perception of responsibility and accountability are actually right on. I know many people from other cultures who constantly lie and change things around to mane themselfs look good and the other person look bad. Now some of you may say we do that to. Yes many people do but it is not the culture that say's that is ok it is the person. We are taught to tell the truth, they are taught to lie. I was so immpressed when the teacher asked who didn't bring their lock and so many people addmited that hey didn't bring one.

Madisont said...

I'm beginning to think that Stone is the one that's right. We all are brought up with the natural sense of what's right and wrong. We all know the basics of what to do, and what not to do. So, we saw a persuading video. So, we got influenced by a song. So, we got excited about reading about a shooting. So what? We can not just excuse ourselves from our responsiblity. And that is to take the blame for something you've done wrong. You can not just say, "Oh, I should go free because the movie made me do it." No, it was our own action, our own decision. Even if we come from a bad background, it's not about where you come from, you can change that with what you do. Why deny the fact you did something wrong? Otherwise you just look like a fool in the end to everyone else.